EAAAirVenture OshkoshShopJoin
1  2  Next Page >

Sport Pilot

Posted By:
Norm Sparby
5
Posts
2
#1 Posted: 3/8/2010 20:29:27

There does not seem to be a great deal of interest in sport pilot activity in my area(central California)  In my search on the internet I found only one flight school  that has  LSA,s available ( yes I know you can take training in a 152 or like plane)  Upon checking  with FAA  thre are approximately 2200 sport pilot licenses isssued since the beginning of the sport pilot program..  In my mind not a big showing!!!! I agree with the concept, but I think flight  schools are not excited about  the program.. #1 they have to invest in a new plane, not many used LSA,s around, plus the training program calls for a minimum of 20 hours vs 40 hour for the private license, Plus they can use a 152 or like plane.  There does not seem to be a lot of P.R. out there by flight schools

Probably a not big money maker for the flighit schools.   I am taking lessons now in a 152, but will have to solo in a LSA, which my flight school  does not have... I notice the the majority of  respones, artiticles  etc  regarding  the Sport Pilot  program come from the east or mid west.   Personally I would like to see the sport pilot license be upgraded to allow using any two seat plane, not exeeding a 100 HP.  This would motivate flight schools to promote the program..

 

 

 



John Eiswirth
112
Posts
19
#2 Posted: 3/8/2010 21:58:36

Definitely some growing pains here.  I think the economy is the biggest culprit.  For flight schools to make investments in new airplanes, they need to see a demand from enough people who have the disposable income to spend now.  Nobody wants to stick their financial neck out in not so stable times.  People like me who are retired and looking for a way to make at least some progress on a shoestring budget don't give them much incentive even if they know we're out here.

For those with enough money to spend, I believe purchasing a classic plane that meets LSA criteria in the $20K range and taking the lessons in it from a regular CFI (all hours can be applied to upgrade to PPL)  is the best way to go.  It makes a plane available both to learn in and fly later.  Even if you can train in a 152, you can't fly it after certification.  If more people in the area are in the same situation, a partnership would reduce expenses further.  A downside of most classics is the conventional gear which requires more attention on the ground and so more money to insure.

Some of my fondest memories were in the back seat of a CAP Aeronca L-16B almost 50 years ago.  A few years later a couple hours dual in a 150 another few years later a couple hours dual in a Cherokee 140.  All I'm flying right now is a flight simulator while I finish stuff I have to do and scheme and dream on things I want to do.

Good luck on your persuit of happiness.



David King
63
Posts
54
#3 Posted: 3/9/2010 03:12:47

Norm,

Many would love to see a change in sport pilot to include two seaters with less than 100 hp, and a few other restrictions like non-retractable gear, and a slight increase in weight. It would open up so many old aircraft to use, although good luck with the FAA and change. Like most other government agencies they are slow, and remain behind the times. Lots of people with good paying jobs, and benefit who do not like change making decisions.



Jon McDonald
Homebuilder or Craftsman
25
Posts
12
#4 Posted: 3/9/2010 05:14:09

Just a quick correction.  The most recent FAA numbers show 3,297 sport pilots.  See the last page of this FAA report: http://registry.faa.gov/activeairmen/M70_Active_Pilots_Summary.pdf 

Second, the 152 you train in has a 110hp Lycoming 235,  this would still exclude it from sport pilot/LSA.

Also, in talking with flight schools that have LSA programs and those that don't, the one thing I notice is that many of the LSA flight schools are pbusy, while many of the non-LSA flight schools are hurting right now.  One FBO  owner mentioned that his SLSA is in the air all the time for instruction or straight rental while his Cherokee is sitting on the ramp growing roots into the asphalt.

My bet is that the market will eventually force more schools to develop sport pilot programs, for fear of losing too much money.  When I first started looking for flight instruction, several schools tried to talk me out of Sport Pilot, in favor of Private Pilot.  The only thing they succeeded in doing was losing my business.  The schools could get away with this when there were no nearby sport pilot programs.  With both Cessna AND Piper getting into LSA and intergrating sport pilot into the instruction curriculum at their flight schools, those resistant flight schools are going to lose more and more business.

When you think about it, the business model for offering a sport pilot program is very appealing if a school is willing to make the investment in an aircraft.  Here are some of the points I see.

1) They can get and keep students who may have been lost due to a denied medical

2) They can offer a lower priced instruction option for those students who balked at spending $8-10K for a PPL

3) A student who may have dropped out after 30hrs for a PPL would probably have an SPL by then, if the Sport pilot program was intergrated into the PPL curriculum.  I believe that this is how Cessna is doing it.  The benefit to the school is that student can still rent the LSA and generate income for the school.  Whereas a dropout generates no additional income for the school unless he choses to resume training.

4) Existing pilots without medicals will rent from the school, generating more income.

 

Like I wrote earlier, eventually the market will pressure several (but not all) of these schools to embrace sport pilot.



Jon McDonald Building Sonex #1287
Jim Heffelfinger
Homebuilder or Craftsman
256
Posts
43
#5 Posted: 3/9/2010 21:35:54

A quick note:

There is no engine HP restriction for LSA/SP.    Take a look at the SP page in eaa.org. 

Once a medical is denied it is denied for SP as well.  The trick is to not get denied but let your medical laps and operate SP  under the restrictions.

http://www.sportpilot.org/

Much discussion in the Ultralight section of the forum re training and the loss of ELSA  trainers - it goes hand in hand with this thread.

Many are waiting for FAA to instruct FSDO to issue LODA for training.

 

 

 

 

 



Jim Heffelfinger
Homebuilder or Craftsman
256
Posts
43
#6 Posted: 3/9/2010 21:37:53

Also note that there are legacy aircraft that are certified but fall under the SP/LSA.  

http://www.sportpilot.org/learn/lsa/standard_certificate_aircraft.html



Jon McDonald
Homebuilder or Craftsman
25
Posts
12
#7 Posted: 3/10/2010 18:11:20

The comment about 100hp engines was in reference to the original poster's proposal that the LSA rules be changed to allow any two seater, regardless of weight, with an engine of less than 100hp, to qualify as an LSA.  I did not mean to imply that the 100hp limit idea was the current rule.



Jon McDonald Building Sonex #1287
Norm Sparby
5
Posts
2
#8 Posted: 3/10/2010 21:17:39

Jon:   Thanks for your input.. Yes, I am aware the 152 is not a LSA, however it can be used as a trainer, I,m sure you are awre of that.  You sound like someone who knows what he is talking about..  I  will have  take my check ride and  solo in an LSA.., which my flight school does not have, and not date set  when they will get one..  HOWEVER, I may have to go to Plan B!!! and go for a medical.. I am seriously looking into this and should be in a position to take the medical exam. by the end of this month, thats, if I  decide to do that. I see you are building your own.. If I were younger I would like to do that do that too..  Good luck.

Norm



Philip Beeson
3
Posts
1
#9 Posted: 3/12/2010 10:48:45

I don't know what your budget is Norm but I can tell you what worked well for me.  I purchased a 1946 Ercoupe 415C which is a certificated aircraft that falls within the LSA guidelines.  I was able to purchase the plane for $22,000.00 and use it for all my training needs and even complete my checkride.  It was a great classic aircraft that served it's purpose very well until I was ready to move up to a newer and faster LSA model.  I now have a Lightning LS-1 made by Arion Aircraft that has a Jabiru 3300 120hp engine with full glass cockpit.  I was in the same situation as you finding a school locally that had the aircraft I could complete my checkride in.  Looking back now I am very glad I took the route I did.  I learned how to fly in my own aircraft, logged time honing my skills and was able to sell the plane for a small profit and save myself the added expense of plane rentals during training and after.  I also believe that learning in a steam guage cockpit and transitioning to a glass panel is always the best option.  Good luck in finding your solution and earning your wings.

Philip



Norm Sparby
5
Posts
2
#10 Posted: 3/12/2010 13:06:56

Phiip:   Even if I would of done that, the flight school still charges for using your own plane,  I currently pay80.00 for the 152

             Even so it would of been a smarter idea to go your route.  I still may do this after I get further into my training.. I am seriiosly  thinking of upgrading to the private pilot class. After talking with a couple of AME, they think I can pass the medical. I have one eye that is not 100% vision.   Anyway I envy you for getting your own plane..   I  agree with you on learning in the steam gauge, lots more of them around thne the glass   Good luck to you too.

 

Norm



Judson Knowles
11
Posts
0
#11 Posted: 3/13/2010 00:38:10

Norm,

Good luck to you. Let us know how it works out and the route you take!

I know in my area, Sport Pilot isn't "all the rage". To rent a Remos (only LSA available close for training) Looking at about $150 with instructor. Heck for $30 an hour more, I'd like the Citabria. But either way, price is still prohibitive for me.

 

-Judson



Judson Knowles
Ralph King
437
Posts
50
#12 Posted: 3/13/2010 02:27:15 Modified: 3/14/2010 08:34:14

As a long time Commercial pilot & having never had a physical denied, I understand to fly LSA aircraft with a current auto drivers license, that I can get a flight review in any single fixed wing, then use my current  (new plastic license, exchanged for old paper license) and fly away in an aircraft certified as a LSA aircraft.   Ratings below.   Thanks. in advance.---------Has anybody wondered besides me why no HELICOPTER LSA?

 

 

http://www.oshkosh365.org/ok365_UserProfile.aspx?uid=62094&id=1262

 

 

 



Ron Wanttaja
246
Posts
98
#13 Posted: 3/13/2010 09:16:08
Ralph King wrote:

 

As a long time Commercial pilot & having never had a physical denied, I understand to fly LSA aircraft with a current auto drivers license, that I can get a flight review in any single fixed wind, then use my current  (new plastic license ) and fly away in an aircraft certified as a LSA aircraft.  

Yes, that's the way I do it...I take my BFRs in a Piper Archer at the local FBO.  I let the CFI know in advance that I'm operating under Sport Pilot to let him/her research the rules in advance.  The only time there's been an issue was the first time, which was just a month or so after the rules went into effect.  The subsequent BFRs haven't raised a peep.

One correction:  You'll be able to fly away in any aircraft that meets the LSA definition... it doesn't have to be certified as a Light Sport Aircraft. 
sportpilot.jpg



Ron Wanttaja
Jerry Rosie
Young Eagles Pilot or Volunteer
482
Posts
101
#14 Posted: 3/13/2010 19:28:50

Great graphic, Ron.  It makes all the criteria understandable and memorable.  But, I'd make one change  - the 1320 lbs is max gross takeoff weight which is the weight that is certified for that airplane as its maximum gross takeoff weight, not the gross weight of the aircraft as measured on a scale.  This caused much confusion when the LSA regs first came out with folks beating their heads against the wall trying to figure out what to remove from their airplane to be under the Max weight.  Doesn't make any difference what the airplane weighs, makes a difference in what the manufacturer says is the max weight that it is allowed to take off at.  ( I didn't explain that very well and it got worse as I tried to clarify it - but I think you all can figure that out)

 



Cheers, Jerry NC22375 out of 07N
John Craparo
58
Posts
50
#15 Posted: 3/13/2010 20:13:13

Norm... Another way to complete your Sport Pilot certification is to go to a school that will work with you to complete it as a "resident" student.  I know of several people who took this approach and went from zero time to Sport Pilot in two weeks.  If you do that, pick a place with fair weather most of the time so you can fly everyday (probably twice a day).  There is a school in Winter Haven, FL that advertises both Sport and Private under this scheme... and St. Charles Flying Service in MO were doing this at one time.

Your approach using the 152 is a good one.  Remos looks like they are expanding their dealer training network and the King School is working with Cessna on a new training program for the 162 Skycatcher.  Once they ramp those programs there should be an uptick for SP training and wider availability of airplanes. Maybe they will provide incentives for some of the old  flight schools to jump in... I believe the 141 schools can now train Sport Pilots too.  I believe SP will continue to grow. 

Your next challenge, should you stick with SP versus the PP and medical route,  is what to fly once you have the rating?  Do you buy something or hope an LSA airplane is brought to your area?  If the latter happens, will it be for rent or only used for lessons?  The purchase of an LSA may be in your future...

All the best with your training and most of all... Have Fun!

John

 



John Craparo Georgetown, TX
Ralph King
437
Posts
50
#16 Posted: 3/14/2010 08:31:57

Thanks Ron, by the way the flybaby was one I was always wanting to build.



John Traynor
8
Posts
1
#17 Posted: 5/16/2010 16:45:39

Norm, you never posted your city, have you tried California Sport Aviation in Lodi,Ca?



J.T. Hayward,Ca
Ralph King
437
Posts
50
#18 Posted: 5/16/2010 18:07:40

How much money could the Federal Government & FAA   have saved the tax payors of the U.S. if the FAA would have just said, "  no more 3rd class physicals for a private aircraft license, or any rating below a Commercial rating."

So, in effect ultralites could do their thing, LSA pilots could do their thing, and Private pilots could do their thing.  Once that private gets his Commercial, the physical requirement kicks in.

 

I guess to easy.

 

Ralph



Ron Wanttaja
246
Posts
98
#19 Posted: 5/16/2010 18:51:36
Ralph King wrote:

 

How much money could the Federal Government & FAA   have saved the tax payors of the U.S. if the FAA would have just said, "  no more 3rd class physicals for a private aircraft license, or any rating below a Commercial rating."

How much does the FAA pay for each medical?  The only cost I see is maintaining a database, which they have to for the pilot ratings, anyway. 

 




Ron Wanttaja
Andy Walker
Homebuilder or Craftsman
19
Posts
2
#20 Posted: 5/21/2010 11:52:24
David King wrote:

 

Norm,

Many would love to see a change in sport pilot to include two seaters with less than 100 hp, and a few other restrictions like non-retractable gear, and a slight increase in weight. It would open up so many old aircraft to use, although good luck with the FAA and change. Like most other government agencies they are slow, and remain behind the times. Lots of people with good paying jobs, and benefit who do not like change making decisions.

 

Why add a  less than 100hp restriction?  There are many 100-120hp LSA flying now, you don't want to take those off the table do you?  That would be everything with a Rotax 912S/ULS or a Jabiru 3300!

Instead of weight or power based, I'd like performance based criteria.  How about any two seat aircraft with a max SL continuous power speed of 120kt or less and a stall speed of 60kt or less?  That captures everything from a Cessna 120/140/150/152 to a Piper Tomahawk to a Grumman AA-1.

In truth, I'd like to see the third class medical disappear entirely for day VFR flight, but that's not going to happen anytime soon...



1  2  Next Page >