Buying a used airplane: tell us your stories!

Hal:

Doubt anyone will learn much from  my buying my first airplane.  In 1963 bought a Piper J-3 that was built in the same month and year I was born, April 1939.  Paid 800.00 with 100.00 down at the Mt. Hawley airport in Peoria Illinois.  After a few months of local flying headed for Florida with 50.00 and a suitcase in the back seat.

I put 300 hours on the cub the first 18 months, sold the cub to an Aero club in Jacksonville Florida  for 400.00 as the fabric was not going to pass the annual.   Still looking back in time, it was a cheap way to build hours.   It cost me 400.00 to get 300 hours of flight time, plus gas.   If the cub was bone  dry I could fill the 12 gallon tank for under 4.00-.32 per gallon.  She was in good shape, but the Lycoming engine came with no starter when built  One had to hand  prop to start the engine on the back side of  the prop by holding on to the door frame with ones left  hand.

Bottom line here, maybe for some buying an airplane could be the  gateway for building those flight hours.

Ralph

P.S.  Do I wish I had taken the cub apart and stored it?  Are there cows in Texas?

I went into airplane ownership with a partner. It was the first plane either of us owned. One lesson we learned is that not all engine overhauls are equal. We thought that if it was from an approved FAA repair station, that there was a level of quality that needed to be met. Ehhh, not quite.

After we kept losing exhaust valves, we looked into the then defunct overhauler and learned that they had a bad reputation at their home airport. We were told that they even used auto mechanics for a time. Fortunately the folks at Lycoming were helpful in diagnosing problems. We should have done a top overhaul after we lost 2 valves, but we didn't realize what was going on until five of them got swallowed. By then we had essentially done a very expensive top overhaul, one cylinder at a time.

The rest of the plane was in good shape. All the things we were told would be trouble, weren't. We never had problems with the retractable landing gear, or the constant speed prop on the Commander 114.

In 1989 I bought a '68 Arrow (180hp), with the intent of only keeping it for a few years. I did indeed only keep it 3 years, flying it about 100 hours per year, and really enjoyed it. At the end of that time it was starting to sit around a few weeks at a time, and as I was still making payments on it, I decided it was time to sell. Paid $18,500, sold it for $22,500. If I had any sort of recurring "mission" I would certainly have kept it. I did an analysis afterward of the cash flow on the whole thing - interest, maintenance, gas, insurance, etc., and determined that it cost me almost exactly what renting a comparable aircraft would have. But a comparable aircraft would not have been sitting there ready for me, and would have been due back by a certain time, etc.

I had some maintenance background and so other than a test flight and compression check I did not do a lot of homework or have a serious inspection done. That was a mistake. All these years later I am an IA and I would be MORE circumspect about anything i bought. No fire sales - if the deal is so good I need to rush or miss it - goodbye!

A friend bought a '78 Tiger a few years ago - well equipped, recent engine, shabby paint. He knew the airplane and owner and was perhaps a bit attached to the idea of buying THAT airplane, and I told him i thought he was overpaying by about the cost of a paint job. Just picked him up from dropping it at the paint shop a few weeks ago - he's been flying the snot out of the airplane and I think he's happy he bought it. Life can be short!

I have owned 6 used aircraft and my feeling is that I got much more value out of it than if I had bought a new one.

My observation is that even when you overpay on a used one you still make out better than new in most cases in terms of retained value.

I do think that emotional attachment is the most dangerous thing with buying a used aircraft since there is not always unlimited supply of what you are looking for and that tends to make you pay too much for it.

It could cause you to justify and rationalize shortcommings that you would never accept on a new purchase, figuring that things could be fixed or redone.

You would be well advised to take a friend along and ask for an honest opinion. And Never bring money with you on the first visit as the temptation is far to great and you will surely pay too much if you don't negotiate at least a little.

Negotiating will not offend a seller, but prove that you are not a stupid buyer with money to burn.

Case in point, is that I had approached one seller of a particular aircraft I had been searching for for over a year. I knew the going rate was $30K for what he was asking $50K and needed plenty of work as well. He would not budge on the price so I went to a forum and spoke to others who told me about planes that were not for sale but the owner might consider it. After making a few calls one owner said he would think about it for a couple weeks if he wanted to sell, and after he agreed and we came up with a reasonable price I bought the plane I have long searched for....from a cold call no less.

Upon notifying the forum of my success the other $50K owner promptly lowered his price to $30K to match the one I just bought.

Of the 6 planes that I have owned, I have sold 3 without ever having flown them as I decided after the fact that they were not exactly suitable for me, or needed more work than I was willing to commit too.

Of the 3 that I sold however, I got them for a good price and made about $2,000 net profit  on one after all costs including delivery, the other 2 I broke even on.

Of the remaining 3, I had to put 9,000 in repairs and maintenance to get them into decent shape but that was factored in the price  along with bartering some services from one guy who was also flight instructor.

When it comes time to sell I feel that I will get my investment back and have basically had the pleasure of flying them for just the cost of normal maintenance, insurance etc.

So far my experiences have been good when you buy at the low end of the market price and expect that your savings will be used towards repairs.

The advantage of this is that you will have a thorough examination of the innards on your own dime and can spend your money where you feel its most important and well spent, rather than buying a plane that somebody gave a new cheapo paint job that covers up all the real flaws that you will eventually have to pay for....or worse just assuming everything is good only to have things fail on your flight over water.

I did not do a prepurchase inspection of any of my aircraft, being that they were all under $30K, but in retrospect it would be wise in many cases to do that to if for not other reason to help negotiate a lower price.

You would probably at least make back what you paid for the IA's services or avoid buying something more expensive than you can afford to repair.

However I did a lot of homework on each one through the FAA records, aircraft history, AD's, company information  and the Internet forums to find out from other owners what to look for.  Had I seen anything questionable or shody I would have called in a pro, but in my case everything was fairly easy to inspect and looked good.

Ray

Let me tell you my story that may make you weep. In 1949 at age 19, I sold my '33 Chevy and my saxophone to buy my first aircraft, an 1946 Aeronca 7AC for $600.00. It took me about 6 weeks to get my PPL while burning 4 gph of $0.27/gal. avgas. In another year I earned my Commercial and Flight Instructors ratings. I began instructing students in this Champ for $10.00 dual and $8.00 an hour solo. In the fall of 1951 I traded the Champ for $800.00 worth of instrument instruction in a Cessna 170 to get my instrument rating plus 10 hours in a UC-78 for a multi-engine rating. This just about doubled my initial investment. I never attended a certified flight school or ground school until I was hired by Western Airlines and got one week of ground school on the DC-3 and three hours of flight training. This was the first time I had ever seen a VOR or an ILS! Yes, it costs a bit more these days but at that time, I was making less than $100.00 per month working two jobs. When I became a First Officer for Western I was paid the magnificent salary of $325.00 per month. Chevron was advertising for service station attendants at $365.00 per month. My father advised me to come home and get a real job. I finished 33 years with Western Air Lines as a DC-10 Captain at a salary that my father would never have believed, even if I told him. The same can be accomplished today. There are still a number of light aircraft that can be had for 1/10 the cost of those melmac-meteors that are coming from Europe and equipped like the space shuttle. You do not need all the bells and whistles and electronic magic to learn to fly. Some kit planes can be built for a reasonable price with a bit pf patience and skill and the cost would be spread over the build time, three to five years. Yes, it takes time and effort. Something our young plug and play generations do not understand. If you want it bad enough, you will make it happen...I did.

Lorry:

Great Post, and really enjoyed it.

Also enjoyed punching on your AVATAR Picture to view your history.  WOW.

Ralph

Lorry:

Your post reminds me of how one can advance if inspired.

Many years ago my uncles daughter married a young man of no means to speak of. They lived in the basement of my uncles home.  He got a job with Caterpillar Tractor in Peoria, Illinois as a machine operator.  Bob only had one pair of shoes and each week end would clean them as best he could to go to church every Sunday. Caterpillar at that time offered test to people that wanted to advance.  Bob was a whiz kid with high math abilities and  took the different  test that Caterpillar had, and the results where that Caterpillar told Bob to pack his and his wifes bags as Caterpillar was going to send him to the University of Illinois and would pay for everything.to get his degree.

After the degree, he came back to Caterpillar and was assigned to the R & R department.   After about a year or so, he was sent to California to straighten out a problem that Caterpillar had in sending  out bad fuel injectors world wide.  He corrected the problem and was asked if he would stay there as the plant manager as the present manger had put in for retirement.

After 5 years was sent to the grader factory as a Plant manager, then was sent to Belgium for 10 years as the Plant manager.   He was asked to return to Peoria, Illinois to become the VICE President of Catterpillar Tractor Company.

His name was Robert Dryden

Ralph

I have debated answering this thread, because my story is more like a saga than a story.  

I bought my first airplane, a MiniMax Ultralight, at a fly in and had such a great time flying it, that I wanted to share the experience (hard to do in a single seat aircraft).  So I bought my Aeronca 65LA on eBay. (I was the only bidder, which should have bee a clue for me).  My instructor and I flew out to St. Louis to pick up the airplane, spent the night in a motel and met the owner at the airport the following morning.  We kicked the tires, exchanged paperwork, and the previous owner spun the prop, and we took off.  The weather was perfect - blue sky - light breeze - farmers working in the fields below us - I'm flying my own airplane - Life is good! 

We had planned 'potty breaks' each hour and as we approached the first planned stop, I pulled the throttle back for descent.  The windscreen immediately began to fog up!  Looking out the side window, I could see blue sky and unlimited viz.  Then I remembered those WWII movies I used to see as a kid of the pilots returning from bombing runs on Tokyo with oil streaming back over the windscreen.  Yep, as we landed, nearly blind, and pulled up to the fuel pump, I climbed out to see oil covering the entire right side of the fuselage. 

I asked the mechanic to loan me a screwdriver so I could look under the cowling.  As I removed the cowling the mechanic was looking over my left shoulder at a completely oil soaked engine compartment.  I will never forget his most apt comment "That don't look good"!

He brought out his degunking equipment and we cleaned off the engine and restarted the airplane to see if we could determine the source of the oil leak.  It was immediately evident that the oil was coming from what looked like a smear of bubble gum near the rear of the Lycoming O145B, covering what looked like a dime sized hole in the engine block.  I went immediately to the phone to call the guy I had just bought the airplane form and explained that it was throwing oil like it would never quit.  His answer was, "Geeze - that never happened to me", so I knew right away, I would receive no help from him.  He had my check and I had his airplane - done deal!

We decided to scrape off the 'bubble gum' to see what was under it, and what could be done about it.  About a half hour of chipping as scrapping disclosed, not a hole, but a leak in the gasket between the engine block and the accessory case.  The mechanic said he had something that might seal that leak well enough to get us home to Pennsylvania and came out of the hangar with a tube of 'stuff' and a throw away paint brush.  As he was applying the 'stuff', Tom, my instructor, asked, "How long does it take for that stuff to set up"?  The mechanic turned the tube over in his hand and read "24 hours".

We got a car from the FBO and directions to THE motel in town, and spent the early evening watching a storm moving east toward us, on the weather channel.  The next morning, we drove back to the airport and poked at the application of 'stuff' which seemed hard even though a full 24 hours had not passed.   We decided to give it a try, rolled the airplane out of the hangar, spun the prop, and - hooray - no oil.  We replaced the cowling and I walked into the FBO reaching for my wallet thinking - about four hours of mechanic time, overnight in a hangar, a car overnight - sure glad I didn't leave home without my American Express card.  I asked Howard, the mechanic, how much I owed him for all his help.  He answered, "Well, let's see, that was four gallons of gas, two quarts of oil - abut $14.95 ought to do it."  With two extra quarts of oil in the luggage compartment we took of for home.

This saga goes on but the short version is that five years later, I finally had a flying airplane and had discovered that parts for a Lycoming O145B are worth more than their weight in gold.

The moral of this story is - (1) Never buy an airplane sight unseen and (2) the folks at the FBO in Casey, Illinois are the greatest folks on earth!  If you ever get near there, stop in, say Hi, and thank them again for me.

Know the mechanic giving the pre-buy, and trust him, or use one highly recommended to you by someone you trust who is NOT the seller.

A prebuy thorough as an annual is not a bad thing. In fact, if you want to really get into the guts of the plane and examine it, remember that an annual is really only the inspection that determines what needs to be fixed to be airworthy, not the expensive part where it's all fixed. If the plane is out of annual, you may even get the buyer to split the cost of said inspection with you.

Know the common Airworthiness Directives for the plane, and the number of ADs overall. Make sure the mechanic knows the AD's for the plane, too - and that they've been complied with. If they haven't been complied with, well, if it's an expensive new AD, you may be able to negotiate the price based on known cost to comply. If it's a major AD that's older and the plane's obviously been flying without compliance, be prepared to need to go over everything with a fine-toothed comb.

Find the owner group, and ask them for advice. They can provide lots of very useful advice specific to that particular airplane, from availability of parts to things to specifically check for.

Stand back about 30 feet from the airplane, and look at it. Are the wings both level and at the same angle? Is the frame straight? Are the landing gear legs both set with the same toe-in? Does anything look a little off? Walk around the plane, again about 30 feet away, and just look at it overall.

If you find something wrong, keep looking.

Know that if you buy a fifty-year-old plane, chances of finding one with no damage history are very small, and even less so for an eighty-year-old plane.

A perfectly preserved 1970's paint and interior tells you either the owner babied the airplane, or always hangared, never flew. A worn-out but well-repaired interior and faded paint job tell you a lot about the care and keeping of the plane. A brand new paint job tells you nothing, good or bad.

Do not get a project plane if you really just want to fly; that's as disastrous as moving into a fixxer-upper house to live. If you want to learn to work on your plane, to modify and tinker and build skills and have a flying airplane further down the road, a project plane is great.

 Make sure any unfinished experimental project comes with all original documentation, and documentation of the work done so far. Expect that you'll want to tear out and redo things someone else did that made sense to them, but not to you.

If you want to buy an airplane, start saving money now. The more money you have in the bank - and the better your habit of saving money each month - the more you will have toward the plane you want, the repair you need, and the cost of going flying once you've drained your wallet by buying the plane.

---

As for myself, my flying buddy came back from the Valdez May Day Fly-in and told me that he'd seen a project Taylorcraft for sale, just looking for some love and attention. He's very tall - I almost come up to his armpit - and he grinned down at me as he said, "I saw it, and I thought, 'That's a you-sized airplane!'"

I asked my IA if he thought I had the capability to tackle a project airplane, and he recommended I look at one right here on Merrill Field. With his advice and guidance, but using a different A&P for the pre-buy, as my IA had worked on this plane and wanted to avoid any appearance of conflict of interest, I looked it over, took a deep breath, and tackled the project. I was able to negotiate a downpayment and paying a thousand a month to the seller, so she's mine free and clear - it was a little painful on a retail salary, but who needs to eat out or new clothes anyway? Two years and several distractions later (relearning how to walk, getting married), I'm nailing the ribs and looking to fly within a month.

It's been a long and interesting road, and I know a lot more than when I started. I'd do it all again... in fact, it was awfully hard to remind myself that I should get this one flying first when an opportunity for another project T-crate came up last week. I still delude myself by thinking I'm not going to get my A&P - at least, not for another few years - well, maybe just not right away... Yeah, right!

Howdy Hal,

I just bought my fourth plane; a 1946 Taylordraft BC12D. She's old and ugly but so am I so we fit together nicely. There's the usual slop in the controls, a tired-but airworthy C65 and, my son can't fly her enough! He's working on his private ticket. My other planes have been a Tri-Pacer (which is probably the best plane I've flown), a Fisher 505 (very fun) and, a VariEze. All of my planes have been great-assuming that planes aren't cheap to own. The VariEze is resting comfortably in the garage waiting for me to finish it's paint prep. As for how do I buy? I shop for the cheapest flyer I can find. Then, whatever I fix is known to be new or good servicable and and adds to my confidence and the planes value. I just wish it weren't threatrening thunderstorms or I'd be flying!!!

I am on my second airplane, and both have been very good. 

My first owned airplace was a C152 that was ten years old and had about 2000 hours on it when I bought it.  I live in NC, and the plane was in MN when I found it.  It was IFR cert and had a fresh overhauled engine with "0 time", which as has been pointed out, really means nothing without a thorough inspection.  My A&P and I had looked at several aircraft in various locations, and some looked downright scary (corrosion, poor maintenance, bad logs, etc.) So when the 152 came up in Anoka, I took my A&P with me on an airline flight and we did a very thorough prepurchase inspection.  It passed and we flew it back to NC (18.5 hrs on the Hobbs - we landed a lot for fuel).  It was an adventure for me, a newly minted Private Pilot, but I wanted a plane in which I could work on my Instrument rating.  My A&P had his ATP and had flown for a small airline for a while.  I added a second Nav/Com and kept that plane for five years, during which time we put over 2000 hours on it (I had it on lease-back at a flight school, which meant my maintenance costs were pretty high - my wife and I swore we wouldn't do that again, and when the engine timed out, I sold it for more than I had paid for it.

My current plane (an Aviat Husky A1-B) that I also bought used, was two years old and only had 71 hours on it when I bought it.  I am the sole owner which means if I decide to take off from work early I don't have to coordinate with anyone other than the weather gurus.  I love the plane and have put almost 500 hours on it in four years.  My girlfriend (my wife passed away several years ago) calls it a "chick magnet" but as long as she likes to fly in it, I am happy.  It too is IFR certified, and very well equipped with avionics (Garmin 430W, and 496 with weather, TCAD etc.), although admittedly I use it fairly infrequently in hard IFR.   It is nice to be able to not only file IFR, but to actually fly in it for useful travel distances.  It isn't fast, but it sure doesn't need much runway!  STOL aircraft never cease to amaze onlookers when doing short field takeoffs and landings (and why would I do anything else? it just puts more wear on the tires. Even an occasional air traffic controller tends to be surprised.  Huskies are getting a bit more common, but it is often mistaken for a SuperCub, which it superficially resembles (it is a totally different aircraft from the frame out).  I have flown it across the country to the west coast and back and all over the eastern US, and have to say it is very comfortable and loads of fun to fly.  I might someday get something else, but for now this is all the airplane I need.

Chris

My first airplane was a Cessna 177 Cardinal.  At the time I was in the middle of my PPL training.  I found the plane for sale in CA, and the guy selling it was an "airplane guy" that did brokerage, training, just about everything.  I flew out there, got some time with him in the right seat, and decided to go for it.  I convinced him to help he out by using an instruction flight for one of his instrument students to get the plane over to my home airport for inspection.

Long story short, I bought the plane, flew it for a year, and then my wife and I got pregnant.  I decided to enlist the services of this "airplane guy" again to help me sell.  After two months, that process came to a scretching halt.  This "airplane guy" that I admired was Tyler Stanger, the flight instructor that crashed into the apartment building in NY with Corey Lidel.

Mostly out of respect for Tyler, I decided not to find another broker, but to do the dirty work myself.  That turned out to be the best thing I could have done.  Watching others go through my plane gave me lots of experience that came in really handy when it was time to by my current ride.

I have owned all or part of 8 airplanes over the years, the first was a 1952 Super Cub on Edo 1650 floats with 2 partners in N Ontario.  The airplane was just north of Winnipeg, on skis for the winter.  Went to look it over, the back stick assembly had been removed and replaced with a front-only mount I believe from a PA18A.  (should have been the first clue)  The airplane was at an airstrip on the Red River with a seaplane ramp adjacent.  The operator also ran a maintenance shop and assured us he had just finished the annual and the airplane was in good shape.  Flew OK, price was right, and we knew where there was a front-and-rear stick assembly for 100 bucks, figured we could get that swapped out at home as one of the partners needed me to teach him to fly floats.

Shook hands, forked over $27,000, and flew it home.  Brought it back after the ice went out a couple of months later to get the floats on, and drove the wheel/ski gear home.  We then took it into the local maintenance base to get the stick changed, they got to looking at things and noticed the right wing looked funny.   Bottom line, the airplane had 7 broken ribs from the root outwards.  A previous owner had been using it to haul wild rice from the bush (hence no rear stick, probably 7 or 8 60# bags at a time.  9K later, the airplane was airworthy.  Moral of the story, get an independent A&P to look it over.

Bought a Zlin 526F in California in the early 90's.  The owner was asking $41K.  We were talikng on the phone, I asked him if he would take 39.  He said, no, he couldn't take less than 37 five.  Ther was kind of a silence at both ends as we both realized what had happened, then I said, OK, 37 five it is!!  It was a great airplane, wish I still had it.  Moral of that story, that's why we say "niner" on the radio!!

In October 2007, while still a student, I decided to buy a plane. For various reasons, I settled on buying a Cherokee 6. I took my instructor (also an A&P and IA) to look at one in S.C. I made an offer on it which was turned down flat. The owners weren't coming off their asking price. That was the best thing that could have happened. I saw an ad for another one that said call for the price. That usually means it will be expensive and they want to get you hooked on it before you find out how much it is. I wasn't going to call, thinking it would be out of my range, but my wife convinced me that I had nothing lose. It turned out to be just under the top of my price range, so I had them send pictures and log copies. It turned out to be in great shape. New paint, good glass, good interior except for wear on the front seats. It was amazingly well equipped in avionics and even had factory AC (nice to have here in the south). It looked so good, instead of e-mailing me snapshots, the broker mailed me 8x10's. It looked like much more plane for my money than the one I had tried to buy earlier.

I negotiated a satisfactory price, subject to an inspection, of course, and my instructor and I flew commercial to Boston Sunday night, where the broker picked us up and took us to the motel. Monday AM we went to see the plane, which was all they had said it was. They had done the IFR certification on Saturday and found a weak transponder. It was taken to an avionics shop, hoping to get it back on Monday. When it wasn't ready when I agreed to take the plane (which took a little while, since a title search showed an unsatisfied lien, which had actually been paid, but not signed off by the bank. The owner got that straightened out, so we were ready to go except for the transponder). The broker had another one installed, which had us leaving several hours later than we planned. Our home airport is a small, private one with no lights, so, after a fuel stop, we had to divert to another one and have my wife pick us up. My second landing in my new plane was my first night landing ever. Good thing my instructor was with me.

After almost three years of flying it, the plane has been great. The only thing I found that didn't work correctly was the electric trim. It needs a new clutch, which I will take care of eventually. Meantime, trimming manually isn't a problem. Despite 1800 hrs. on the engine, everybody who has flown in the plane (including my checkride examiner) or heard it from the ground has commented on how good  it sounds and runs. Good oil pressure instantly on starting, and no compression under 74# cold (76 hot). I can't see me buying another plane unless I have to move down to an LSA due to medical problems as I get older.

BTW, I had a couple of gray cowhides that went well with the gray in the color scheme, so I had the front seat reupholstered in leather.