Drug Enforcement Agency Causes Kings to be Held at Gunpoint

Greetings Paul,

Sorry to bust your indignant bubble but this is another example of media over play that we in aviation are so often involved in.

Yes the data they used to come to this conclusion was incorrect, and that is not good. But the Kings were only detained for 30 minutes, that is a pretty short time, all things concidered. I just listened to Martha's interview with AvWeb and while I understand her position, I vehemently disagree that this was a civil rights violation. It was a criminal investigation with an unfortunate outcome.

 

I have been through a similar experience due to missing data that caused confusion and the result was about the same, however I was detained by the California Highway Patrol for nearly 3 hours before the situation was resolved.

Had this gone the another way and the agencies didn't respond at all and another aircraft was using the same N-number because bad guys didn't read the database correctly and thought the number was off the books, and they did something that made the news, the agencies you are bashing now would still be on the firing line for not doing their jobs. They were following up on a lead, a bad lead, but the field agents had no way of knowing that.

We often complain that the media and general public don't understand aviation and that is why they make negative statements about us. Things that seem obvious to us seem to elude them. This is the same situation. If we want the benefit of the doubt and for people to look into things before going off in public venues about our apparent failings, don't you think we should do the same?

My frustration is not with you personally but with people in general and thier knee-jerk, reactionary, arm-chair-quarterbacking of news. If people would just research things and get information from multiple viewpoints before making commentary we would all be happier.

~Jon

Have to disagree.  There was NO reason for this to be handled in this manner.  As John said, 60 seconds on the FAA database would have cleared the whole thing up ahead of time.  Weapons were drawn and pointed, and not secured even after the Kings were in custody.  This was overkill by a bunch of cops with a "Dirty Harry" complex...

I wonder, I just wonder, if such an uproar would have happened if it had been anyone other than the Kings who were"inconvenienced"?  And I also wonder if how many of those who have come down so hard on folks just trying to do their job have never made a mistake...... And how many of them would have approached suspected criminals without drawing their guns.  While many of us, who have seen John and Martha in numerous magazine ads, would recognize them right away, I wonder how many of those law enforcement officers subscribe to Aviation Magazines?????

 

 

 I have to disagree with that. When we authorize people to use deadly force, I want all reasonable precautions to be used to prevent mistakes. An argument can be made that pobody nerfect, but this wasn't just a case where nothing was verified during the urgency of the apprehension. There was no verification in the years this obsolete information was used. The DEA just assumed that their data, that was several years old, would never become obsolete.

If you don't mind being detained for three hours under the threat of going to jail for committing a crime you are innocent of, that's your business. I certaintly don't want to be in that situation. We often hear about DNA exonorating people, but how many more cases are people wrongly forced to take a plea bargain agreement to avoid the threat of a long jail term when they are innocent?

This situation isn't specific to aviation. With the new license plate scanners  on police cars constantly searching any vehicle they cross, a car could be mistaken for one running drugs with just a typo from someone in a data entry sweat shop.

I don't understand what multiple viewpoints you are advocating. Law enforcement was wrong in this situation. When it comes to putting people in jail, or pointing weapons at them, perfection is the only option. Unfortunately, the current environment only rewards law enforcement personnel when they can put some "accomplishment" on some TPS report.

Little wonder pilot numbers continue to decline. Every pilot is a suspected drug runner or terrorist and is treated as such by our endless number of “security” agencies from local police and private security firms to ICE, TSA, FBI, DEA, “Homeland” Security, ad. infinitum. It also turns out that EPIC is not a private firm, it is DEA … and we pay their salaries for being arrogant and incompetent.

I think the Kings are nice folks and I hate to see this happening to them (I took their IFR ground school in Fairbanks AK when it was just the two of them teaching).

 

On the other hand, I think It may turn out to be a good thing for the aviation community that it did happen to the KIngs and I much appreciate them discussing the matter in public. 

 

If those law enforcement folks were professional they should have seen sooner than they did that the KIngs were not a threat. 

 

Pointing a firearm at someone is not a laughing matter.  If I did so in a situation found by the courts to be (and appear to be) non threatening I'd be prosecuted for Assault with a Deadly Weapon and my life would be much changed....Louis

It is not just pilots who are declining, it is airline passengers as well.  Every pilot, or passenger (commercial  or GA, or more recently for that matter rail and boat) is considered guilty until they can demonstrate innocence, and treated like a criminal until they satisfy DHS/TSA/CBP.  These "security" agencies, created, no doubt with the best of intentions have demonstrated repeated incompetence, which is then covered up with security theatre.  Instead of saying we screwed up, they bluster and grandstand.  They proclaim "layers of security" to justify their incompetence and there is no more dangerous person or organization than an armed incompetent arrogant one.

 

Hear what John King has to say about the whole thing:

http://www.funplacestofly.com/blog.asp?ID=269

 

J. C. (Smitty) Smith
http://OpenAirNet.com - Web/Database Design
http://FunPlacesToFly.com
http://SmittysRV.com

 

This is a SERIOUS problem and it didn't start last week.  May I throw out a few personal experiences? In a past life, I flew transport catagory helicopters in the offshore Gulf of Mexico area.  I recall  at leastl five intercepts on me by ICE,  DEA and Texas Air NAt Guard fighters going back almost two decades. I was always in strict compliance with FARs and LOAs. I was on an IFR clearance with ATC on some. The intercepts involved coming in dangerously close proximity. Once, A Customs Citation placed his wing tip six feet under my belly for about ten minutes. As this, like the others was unwarrented, I contacted our Principle Operations Inspector not at the FSDO, but at his home, He basicaly kind of shrugged and said they did have a case in the works against an ICE pilot ongoing, but don't expect miracles.

My co workers also reported encounters. How about a S-76 doing a GPS approach in IMC on a clearance from MSY APC over thirty miles inland and sighting DEA's BE90 passing 100 feet under the nose right to left. Another time,  I was doing a 20 mile positioning flight in VFR and the same BE90 closed in from the south, crossed over the top at 90 deg and FIFTY feet and took up postion at 3 oclock/ 100 ft. He refused to talk on the CTAF until we both landed at KPTN. When he finally answered me, I told him that I would be right over and the 90 took off. We also had some crews that got the full SWAT treatment with guns pointed at them and the passengers. Then they left without an "excuse me.".

I reported some of this "sporty" flying to ATC several times and was told that they were on a "Due Regard" clearance. Look that up. You will find that it is a DOD/ICAO/ATC procedure that must be done in VMC and at least 12 miles offshore, not in formaqtion on an instrument approach to a US airport..

Sometime, I cleared customs 3 times in 1 day. Every once in a while, you meet a badge happy bozzo. If you are right, I found it paid to hold your ground and get back in his/her face. BTW, I was a cop for a few years. I found a large difference in the courtesy level from Houston, Intercont and Houston Hobby. Remember that this air/ground harrasement was being done to US registered a/c operated on a FAA  cert with US crews carrying US citizens in US airspace and on a clearance from the FAA ATC.

Many occasions, I found an intelectual dullness that was disturbing. Despite closing to 20 feet from me and reading my foot tall N number and the company logo in yard tall letters 8 feet long, these nimrods called ANOTHER carrier to ask for info on my flight. Their lack of mental talent was made up for in spades with their arrogance. If you think that it was me screwing, up the FAA gave me a Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award couple of years ago. If anyone wants details on these and more, contact me directly, I could write a book.

Bob  

I predict some inflammatory troll will post "If you don't want to be detained at gunpoint, then don't fly stolen airplanes."

John and Martha are exactly right (as usual) that we should be very concerned about such gross incompetence, especially when police start brandishing loaded firearms. 

Yes, I have been in a similar situation, with many gun-barrels pointed at me, and I didn't like it one bit.  The city sent no less than eight cop cars to intercept me while I had parked my car outside a closed motorcycle shop while my friend retrieved his (freshly repaired and paid for) motorcycle parked outside.  Some rent-a cop had noticed that some incompetent employee had evidently left the front door unlocked, and so the guard called in the moral equivalent of "Officer Down, shots fired, mass riot in progress". Once they determined that absolutely nothing had been stolen, they decided maybe we weren't terrorists after all.  Eight cop cars!  That was at the time over 50% of the entire fleet, and maybe more than 75% of the entire shift!

The real point is that this nonsense has nothing to do with stolen property and everything to do with the SCOTUS systematic nullification of the bill of rights.  Evidently, being outside your own home (in other than police custody) is now a mere privilege, which obviates any constitutional protections at all.  This was America.  Now it's more like Amerika.  We don't need no stinkin probable cause anymore...Your papers please.

Heck, just last night, I saw on the TV news at 74 year old man was tasered inside his own home, for refusing to be transported for a medical exam after a minor fall. There's no place anywhere anymore that is safe from mindless police brutality!

Where will it end?  Will it end?  Is this the end of America, land of the free?  Are there simply not enough people left who believe true freedom is worth the fight?

Wow...

It is fairly obvious that no one on this thread has any law enforcement experience, or administrative law experience. I can not, and will not justify bad piloting by an agencies pilots as expressed by one response, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the type of action that involved the Kings.

I have had law enforcement experience, I have been involved in potentially dangerous and flat out dangerous incidents. The field officers did what they had to do to keep themselves and the public safe with the information they had. As for the data anylists, that is yet to be seen. 

The only incompetence I have seen is that coming from the media and arm-chair-quarterbacks assuming they have even the remotest understanding of law enforcement, federal or otherwise. Unless you know what someone's job is and the environment they do it in, hold off on the claims of incompetence. 

I understand people are angry and frustrated, but who should this be directed at? Not the guys in the field! If you don't like us being in Afghanistan are you going to blame the soldiers on the ground, or the administration?

~Jon

Jon, I guess that we all should take a deep breath. As I said in my last, I was a cop from 1960 until I went on active duty from the National Guard in 68 as a pilot. I put my Thorp T-18 project in suspended animation for the duration. I took some business law classes through Baylor while I was on active duty.

The "swat team" incident happened to one of our crews in the Galveston area who were bringing some offshore workers home. The Blackhawk carrying the armed team was vectored in on them as they landed after dark. It did get ugly for crew and passengers with assault rifles in their face. Their luggage was searched while waiting wives and kids looked on. Nothing was found. It was a case of mistaken ID. Two radar tracks crossed. They then turned friendly, and passed on a greeting from our former pilot who was now in their employ. He was then airborne in another aircraft. Wierd. Beyond that, I know nothing more.

There are about 800 helicopters and 300 airplanes supporting the energy industry. Or were until the moratorium. Oddly, ICE, DEA, NORAD, et al seems surprised that every radar target is NOT a bogie. And were treated accordingly until budgets ran thin. All A/C operating under the LOA are assigned descrete xpndr codes that are treated like military secrets. .I retired late 2005 and now working on a Jab powered Z-601XL..

Bob

"It is fairly obvious that no one on this thread has any law enforcement experience, or administrative law experience"  Since when does anyone need law enforcement experience to note the total lack of common sense in this situation?

An airplane suspected of being stolen by drug runners lands in broad daylight on an IFR flight plan and complies with every ground control instruction, instead of bolting.  The occupants get out as commanded, are frisked and have no weapons.  There is no suspicious activity.  Where was the threat?  At what stage does common sense prevail and obvious questions start being asked without threats of deadly force by a vastly superior force?  And when does courtesy enter the picture when the mistake is discovered?

I have no law enforcement or military experience. I'm just a schmoe who likes to fly when he can. 

 I do, however, completely understand how the officers were most likely rather careful about executing their "hot stop" procedure, referring to the AvWeb article/tweet yesterday.*  I imagine, given known news media and security cameras rolling, the officers would likely not want to deviate too much from procedure either on the side of police brutality or overly polite questions involving tea and cookies.

 Ironically, given hindsight and the fact that everyone is safe and healthy, it occurred to me they picked the right people to stop. The Kings can surely turn a negative into a positive like few others can, if it leads to developing better procedures for dealing with suspected stolen aircraft.

 The Kings' 2009 Sun and Fun lecture, "John and Martha King on Practical Risk Management 2009 Sun 'n Fun Aviation Training Seminar "  (URL below) gives us a preview of what we might expect from this incident that will surely be entertaining and informative.  They are a talented couple and I've learned a lot from their training videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHKbeT-EZHM 

 

Greg Long - EAA 412965 / ch105

 

*http://www.avweb.com/avwebbiz/news/KingsToHelpWithPoliceTraining_203213-1.html 

 

AvWeb audio-interview with Martha King after armed apprehension by Santa Barbara PD of her and John (mistaken identity) http://bit.ly/9oViGD 

Forgive my ignorance but would people expect a criminal to file a flight plan using the N number of the aircraft he/she stole?

Exactly!  In one of the photos, John is already cuffed and locked in the back of the patrol car, Martha is cuffed and being ushered to another, and one of the cops is STILL running around with his pistol unsecured.  Unsafe and unecessary...it should have been back in the holster LONG before that.  Don't the folks know basic firearms safety?  The Kings are right...if this kind of thing keeps happening, it is going to end in a tragic "mistake" some day...

John and Martha King are JAILBIRDS now....and Thats a FACT !!!!

While some with some law enforcement experience tend to frost this over as part of what should be considered normal now.... as people are just doing their job....and well ....wow....it's just ok.....

It's NOT OK....

I would sure give my hat and my spats nd my trollin tractor to see the video...I bet John's eye's were big as platters...and to know what Martha's comments were dring the process....

There is definatly some real hot doggin going on.... public people are not TOP GUN ....and it needs to be cleaned up PRONTO.....

AND THATS A FACT !     before some real crap happens....and it could be someone you love and need and really really care for.... 

and thats the truth.

 

 http://www.eaa.org/news/2010/2010-09-01_kings.asp

 

[pasting in, plain text -- if the above URL is not a link, please copy/paste... there's serious problems with the textbox UI; yet I understand new code is on the way per Hal... and hopefully much more robust hardware and/or bandwidth as this current getup is (respectfully, guys/gals) Victor-Sierra-Foxtrot -GL]

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Kings Seek Learning Opportunity in Security Blunder

 

 

September 1, 2010 — Last weekend’s incident in which the Santa Barbara Police Department detained and handcuffed John and Martha King at gunpoint revealed a number of shortcomings within the system that John, commenting in his blog, said need to be fixed before a tragedy occurs. As was previously reported, John and Martha were placed in custody upon landing after the airplane they were flying, a leased Cessna 172 Skyhawk from Cessna Aircraft Co., was wrongfully identified by the El Paso Intelligence Center (EPIC) as stolen because it carried the very N-number -  N50545 - of a C-150 stolen eight years ago from McKinney, Texas.

 

Even though the FAA had canceled the registration and reassigned N50545 to the Cessna-owned C-172, flags apparently went up at EPIC when the Kings filed their IFR flight plan through FltPlan.com and EPIC alerted the SBPD, and the incident ensued on the taxiway at the Santa Barbara Airport last Saturday, August 28. (Click on the above link for the Kings’ incident report.)

 

Originally formed in 1974 to improve drug- and border-enforcement operations along the Southwest border, EPIC is part of the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) and is run jointly by the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) and U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP), with liaison officers from 15 Federal agencies. Its vision, according to the EPIC website: “To continue to provide timely and expeditious support to Federal, State, local, tribal, and international law enforcement agencies and to remain the premier tactical operational intelligence center in the nation.”

 

Meanwhile, John and Martha are attempting to turn the page the best way they know how – by making this a teachable moment. In their blog, John writes, “This could, of course, have happened to any pilot. The important point is to turn this into a learning opportunity for everyone involved so this doesn’t happen to innocent pilots again.”

 

He listed several “failure points” that resulted in the misidentification of the stolen airplane:

 

    * The FAA should not re-assign numbers of stolen aircraft unless the system is changed to protect the users of the aircraft the number is re-assigned to. (The FAA has reportedly removed N50545 from the list of stolen aircraft.)

 

    * El Paso Intelligence Center (EPIC) should check the FAA database before notifying agencies that a stolen aircraft in the IFR system is inbound.

 

    * There needs to be a system for correcting the stolen aircraft database and better coordination between agencies.

 

    * Police departments should be given Standard Operating Procedures and training regarding meeting suspicious aircraft.

 

 

 

“One thing that still bothers me about this case is that the Santa Barbara Police Department is still treating this case as if it were no big deal,” John wrote. “I guess it isn’t a big deal if you are on the aiming end of the gun. And I have to admit that nobody was hurt and we and the police returned to our homes that night. Their reports to the press characterize us as ‘laughing afterwards’ and ‘completely understanding.’ The truth is that we were completely cooperative, and what we understood is that it is never wise to argue with a law enforcement officer. There will always be plenty of time for argument later on if you survive the incident.”

 

“We were not insulted or offended personally. We just feel that drawing guns on people is dangerous business—not to be done unless it is absolutely necessary. And it will continue to happen to other pilots unless the system is changed.”

 

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From:   http://www.eaa.org/news/2010/2010-09-01_kings.asp 

 

Trying to determine if I have the information correct on this.  Let's see...  The tail number is reported stolen, and placed in some computer data base as a stolen airplane.  Some time later, the FAA re-issues the number and it is placed on another airplane.  The number has not been removed from the data base as stolen...  Is that right to far?  Now, several years later, an IFR flight plan is filed, and the tail number pops up as stolen.  The destination of the airplane is Santa Barbara and the local police department is notified that a stolen airplane with two people on board is expected to arrive at a certain time and I would suppose that they were instructed to recover the "stolen" airplane and arrest the occupants.  The police are there waiting and extract the two people from the "stolen" airplane at gunpoint (they do want to go home to their families after their shift) and conduct an investigation.  Now, some how the police are the bad guys, the ones who are at fault.  If it was your stolen airplane being flown by unknown felons, how would you want them to act?  Monday morning quarterbacking is alway great, but put yourselves into the position of those Officers....acting on the information that was available to them.  There were a lot of mistakes made by several agencies, but the police acted on what they thought was reliable information...  They were not the bad guys here!!!!