EAAAirVenture OshkoshShopJoin
1  2  Next Page >

FAA Model Airplane Ban?%@!&?

Posted By:
Jonathan Hardwick
Vintage Aircraft Association MemberWarbirds of America MemberHomebuilder or CraftsmanAirVenture Volunteer
9
Posts
0
#1 Posted: 2/8/2011 22:35:57

The overreaching is out of control at the FAA.

 

http://www.aero-news.net/news/sport.cfm?ContentBlockID=80760875-a5a3-451e-b415-7c5248645401&Dynamic=1



Sheldon Heatherington
63
Posts
28
#2 Posted: 2/10/2011 10:18:31

Ban all of modeling they mean. Geez. Speed limits? Come on. The FAA isn't giving us modelers enough credit.  I know EAA has partnered up with the AMA. Hopefully they can iron something out. We aren't a threat. We are responsible citizens.  When there was a problem, my club pounced on it, to keep it from getting serious, so we could keep flyiing in a safe, responsible manner.



James Taylor
Vintage Aircraft Association MemberYoung Eagles Pilot or Volunteer
1
Post
0
#3 Posted: 2/10/2011 21:29:41

Does anyone know what we can do to stop this? Jim Taylor, AMA3100



Jim Taylor
Richard Warner
Homebuilder or CraftsmanAirVenture Volunteer
32
Posts
2
#4 Posted: 2/10/2011 22:44:18 Modified: 2/10/2011 22:45:56

I think that this is beyond what the FAA has power to control.  Very over reaching like most of the rest of the Federal Government.  This needs to be fought all the way..

 



Philip Craig
Vintage Aircraft Association MemberHomebuilder or Craftsman
2
Posts
0
#5 Posted: 2/11/2011 00:31:38

Write to your Senator or Congressman. Remember, many of us with a PPL, CPL or ATPL started by flying RC Models when we were young. This nonsense rulemaking is going to impact on future pilots and flying in the US.



Spencer Gould
Homebuilder or Craftsman
32
Posts
1
#6 Posted: 2/11/2011 00:59:56

 

Ive been reading several web sites on this subject including the one off of aero news. They often talk about the “billion” dollar business that it will effect but the more important thing to mention is Model aviation especially radio control is one of the most common entrees in to the world of aviation for the youth of today.

 

Anyone who has watched history shows, read vintage thru current magazines or talked to the WW2 thru Vietnam generation knows there is an overwhelming trend of the gradual decay & rot of aviation since the mid 70’s. Keep in mind I’m a product of the 70’s but I sure know a bad trend when I see one. All aspects are affected: an airline transportation system that gets worse and worse each year, the cost over runs & delays of the JSF designed on state of the art computer systems & global collaboration compared to the SR-71 designed with slide rules and paper that got it done. A time when the common man or woman could get their private pilots license, to it now being a luxury item set aside for the well to do or the well connected. Radical & innovative Homebuilt designs from Rutan & others showing up at airventure, to ahhhhhhh nothing new. Apollo missions going to the moon, employing 10’s of thousands of people to the retirement of the shuttle and a “for rent” sign on Florida’s space coast NASA facilities  GA Airports with out fences where people could watch the aircraft taking off & landing, talk to pilots and maybe even get a ride to 6’ high barbed wire fences with many “your not allowed here” signs.

 

Before the FAA tries to enacts this bill there is far reaching reproductions that will harm many facets of this country far beyond the local hobby shop or hobby distributor. Not only would these rules further decay all of aviation it will pour gas on the fire!

 

Radio controlled aircraft are a hands on way for people to learn aerodynamics, structures, electronics, assembly methods and so on. These are things that game councils (X box, play station) will never replace for the youth of today. Things long boring not to the point reading from the book theory lectures in the class room will never replace for the college student. Aerospace engineering is not as desirable as it once was. Killing off or limiting R/C will cause a further brain drain in this country something we do not need!

 

As a contractor working for one of the countries leading Aircraft Gas Turbine companies I sit next to the hiring manager, every new recruit he talks to on the phone he ask do you work on cars or fly R/C planes as a way to gauge if they have any mechanical common since. The engineers of today need more mechanical common since, zapping R/C will not help.

 

The next step after R/C is often an interest in General Aviation & a pilots license. Each year there are less and less student pilots, and even less new licenses issued. Killing off or limiting R/C will further compound the declining pilot population, again we don’t need that.

 

With less pilots there will be a lower demand for used and new aircraft. Many General Aviation items such as Fuel, new Engines, new airframes can see lower cost with scales of economy, reduce the need for these items the prices on these items will go up. Yet another thing we do not need!

 

The EAA was founded by people who built there own aircraft & is still its core mission. Building R/C aircraft is an excellent prerequisite & confidence builder to step into a Homebuilt aircraft. Although the total number of homebuilt aircraft reregistered in the US are over 30,000 its just something that fewer and fewer people take on. Zapping the R/C seed will not help this!

 

The 40’s thru the 60’s generated a vast pilot population due to many factors, many of these pilots moved into the commercial airline field. They are now retiring, Zap R/C and it will Zap many potential commercial airline pilots.

 

Military Aircraft will likely still have human involvement weather it’s a F-22 pilot or a UCAV pilot in a trailer. Many of these pilots started there journey in Aviation thru R/C. The military could be losing a lot of talent if these rules go thru.

 

Now think of the teenager of the future. There is a lot of actual bad things they could be doing (drugs, gangs, crime etc.) but no he or she is out there flying an R/C aircraft, an FAA “G” man with the aid of law enforcement arrest this teenager, confiscates & breaks the R/C aircraft they spent a lot of honest time or money on, throws the book at them and feeds them to the jaws of the legal system so they can make a quota. I would likely conclude this event would squash many positive potentials for this person. They could of become and Engineer, Civil or Military pilot. Worked for an Aerospace manufacture or even the FAA. But because of a short sided bureaucratic ruling it all went down the drain!

 

It’s a long sermon, but hopefully the right person will read it and it can help the cause. 

 

Spencer Gould

 

P.S. here is a list of things I have done or who I am because of my beginnings in R/C

 

Current EAA 466275

Current EAA TC 5426

Non Current AMA 511268

 

03’ BSAE from Embry-Riddle

Single Engine Land Private Pilot ~250 hrs

 

Helped build a few homebuilt aircraft

 

Flown 20 different aircraft makes.

 

Propulsion Engineer for auto to aero engines.

 

Aeronautical Engineer on an aircraft that won in its class for the 06’ Reno air races

 

Designed and am building a single seat all composite aircraft.

 

Former Piper Aircraft Employee

 

Currently a Pratt & Whitney Contractor.

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

 



Steve Fabiszak
Young Eagles Pilot or VolunteerHomebuilder or CraftsmanAirVenture Volunteer
103
Posts
32
#7 Posted: 2/11/2011 19:16:43

Thankfully Ben Franklin flew his kite 200 years before the FAA showed up.

 



William Brennan
IAC Member
1
Post
0
#8 Posted: 2/14/2011 06:34:57

I started in R/C in the sixtys, got my private, comm, CFII, ATP, then flew for the airlines.   I am still an active CFI, and still fly R/C.   As with too much government too much regulation, and not enforcing the laws that we have now, what would this accomplish??   I think the AMA has gone down the right path all along, self regulating by local club members.   WE DO NOT NEED THE GOV.T STICKING THEIR NOSES INTO THIS



James Rosenow
IAC MemberAirVenture Volunteer
18
Posts
2
#9 Posted: 2/16/2011 08:50:14

Allow me to weigh in with an alternative view...

 

Inventive RCer's are using long-range links to fly 15 miles and more, at altitude, away from the controller....

http://www.terranova.net/~winger/RCVideoStore/DragonLink/About/About.htm

...and places that they certainly shouldn't be....

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2010/12/how-a-rc-airplane-buzzed-the-statue-of-liberty-with-no-arrests.ars

Having read the article in the original posters link, it appears that the AMA is objecting, among other things, to a 400 foot ceiling limit, a speed restriction of 100 mph, and a weight limit of 55 pounds.

Someone help me understand how the freedom to fly RC beyond these limits in the pursuit of a hobby justifies putting my life at risk in a mid-air.  These FPV RC pilots have no peripheral view (head on a swivel) nor a transponder, the two primary ways to see-and-avoid in the low and slow scenario.

Thanks for your considering my POV!

Jim

AMA member / EAA 64315



Dana Hague
29
Posts
2
#10 Posted: 2/16/2011 17:27:39

I too started out as a modeler, still have a house full of R/C models.  My R/C hobby led directly to what I am today, pilot, aeronautical engineer, etc.  Restrictions on run of the mill models are stupid; 400' and 100 mph are unreasonable; sailplanes need to fly higher and a run of the mill model, not even a racing plane, can easily exceed 100 mph... but I am concerned about the current trend to huge models, and models operating beyond line of sight... restrictions on those are inevitable, and probably a good idea.



Zack Baughman
543
Posts
483
#11 Posted: 2/16/2011 18:09:48

 There is some good info on this issue here:  http://www.modelaircraft.org/aboutama/articles.aspx  I suggest everyone that is concerned join the AMA (if you are not already a member) and lend them the weight of numbers. 

 



EAA Timeless Voices Program Coordinator & Museum Collections Assistant "Let No Story Go Untold!"
Spencer Gould
Homebuilder or Craftsman
32
Posts
1
#12 Posted: 2/17/2011 02:15:27

 

I never had an RC plane over 20 lbs however I used to fly my 8’ wing span motor gliders well above 400’ and on a dead air day maxing out your alt gives you the longest sled ride. The large size / slow speed makes it quite easy to control at high altitudes. As for the 100 mph Q500 racers (simple cheap prop powered) are above that number as well not to mention the turbines.

 

Speed and Altitude are often a guess with out references or telemetry or references, enforcement of these parameters will be difficult, expensive & taking away the time & resources of parks or law enforcement that could be spent on more pressing matters.

 

Also look at the Don & Martha King fiasco when it comes to mixing “non aircraft” law enforcement & aviation. The word shenanigans comes to mind.

 

As for separation I used to fly at the Jefco Aeromodlers field in South Denver. On a given weekend there would be 8 or so R/C aircraft up in the air at the same time, mid airs where rare, and the pilots could keep the coordination going for up to a half hour at a time. The occasional C-172 Sunday flyer was far more easy to detect compared to a small / fast R/C.  

 

I think the main risk is all the recent tech advances that allow for someone to make an UAV or fly by camera aircraft & getting it into airspace that it should not be in. Although they can fly on there own, they likely do not have Transponders. communications or ATC clearance if applicable as compared to domestic flight of a Military UAV.

 

The FAA should not be messing with the existing & proven line of site model aircraft operations.



Robert Dingley
Homebuilder or Craftsman
161
Posts
37
#13 Posted: 2/17/2011 11:16:37

I hate to be the dissenting voice. Some RC flyers with no common sense ruin it for the rest. I know of one guy that flew from his farm within 750 feet of the missed approach point of a GPS procedure that I frequently used. He intentionaly over flew the MAP. At times with 1/2 mile vis. He stated that it was his property and he was there first. He, after all,had no certificate that the FAA could take action on. The guy from the FSDO visited his home and told him that he would certainly be in Federal Court if he operated at all when the Class E was in effect to the surface.  He replied that he knew what "surface" was but "what was this Class E stuff?" He was further informed by my management that if he hit one our mega bucks aircraft under these conditions, we would own his model, his house and his........!

A little common sense goes a long way and it should never have come to this. I can provide details on req., The visit from FSDO got him into the FAA data base.

'Bob



Jim Caron
Young Eagles Pilot or VolunteerAirVenture Volunteer
9
Posts
1
#14 Posted: 2/20/2011 10:15:25 Modified: 2/20/2011 10:49:48

If you ban everything because some ill-mannered sod did something stupid, we might as well just go ahead and freeze ourselves. It's the ONLY way we'll be able to protect us from ourselves!

 

I guess they didn't want to wait until general aviation was completely dead before going after the very tip of the grassroots, eh?

Some folks don't understand why people do things they enjoy. They just sit in their offices and fume at the idea of other people actually going *out* and doing something fun. Rather than take even the small risk of trying anything themselves, they try to satisfy that fearful creature in their psyche by throttling everyone else. Too bad that so many folks who think/act like this usually become bureaucrats with political power when they grow older. They won't even live vicariously through us. All they care about is the destruction of anything they don't understand, because it scares them.

This applies to any number of interests, though we don't really cross-communicate all that well, so our numbers stay relatively small.

 

 



Spencer Gould
Homebuilder or Craftsman
32
Posts
1
#15 Posted: 2/23/2011 00:54:05

 

Sounds like this guy was not flying from an AMA approved flying site or operating his aircraft according to AMA Rules. FSDO action was applicable and appropriate.

 

If one Cessna buzzes some sky scrapers should we stop all general aviation operations permanently or go after that one guy? If someone drives across a median on the interstate into oncoming traffic on purpose should we boot all cars and take away all drivers licenses or go after that one guy? Got to draw a line somewhere.

 

Its easy to trade freedom for restrictions it doesn’t work so well in reverse.  



Bob Seevers
50
Posts
10
#16 Posted: 2/23/2011 11:56:14

 

A couple years ago we had a near miss - within 100' at my 11 o'clock - with a large scale Extra, doing a vertical roll, at and above pattern altitude, within class D airspace, from an AMA approved R/C club field with fancy paved runway. I called the FSDO.  He called the pres. of the r/c club, whom the fed knew because he belonged to the same club, called me back and after interrogating me on my knowledge of FAR's,  told me "don't fly over their field anymore".  There...all fixed.  You can't regulate stupid.  I might be taking up r/c, the feds are really there to help, then. 

 



James Rosenow
IAC MemberAirVenture Volunteer
18
Posts
2
#17 Posted: 2/23/2011 16:57:49

Got an email from AMA today (I'm a member)...the subject was "Your Help Is Needed!  Support AMA's Efforts To Protect Model Aviation!".  The email pointed me to the organizations government relations page.  Under the questions and answers I found this.... cut and pasted from the site....

----------------------

Q. What are the restraints that are being proposed?

A. The exact criteria and constraints being proposed in the new regulation are unknown and will remain largely unknown until the summer of 2011, when the Notice of Proposed Rulemaking is published in the Federal Register. However, the "Aviation Rulemaking Committee report" submitted to the FAA in March 2009 gives a good indication of the issues and safety concerns being considered.

--------------------------That seems to beg the question "Why don't we all wait and see what's proposed before having a hissy fit?"

I notice that no one has addressed my question about the freedom to enjoy a hobby versus endangering the lives of pilots.

Again, thanks for considering my POV.

Jim




Scott Fohrman
IAC MemberVintage Aircraft Association MemberWarbirds of America MemberHomebuilder or CraftsmanAirVenture Volunteer
34
Posts
14
#18 Posted: 2/23/2011 19:36:08

 

James

Maybe the FAA should regulate birds, they endanger the lives of many pilots. Oh, how about clouds, those things have killed countless pilots and rained devestation on numerous communities. Let us not forget lightning, serves no usefull purpose but killing people and destroying trees - creates tons of ozone too, very bad for the enviroment.  

More seriously, the big issue has always been "see and avoid." A UAV typically can not do that and major aircraft firms have to employ chase planes - they don;t like that. Those major firms made up 90 percent of the rule making comittee. The AMA proposed that the defination of UAV be one that was not control by unaided line of sight from the ground. This is reasonable, I can see and avoid with my RC plane. One could even extend this to commercial or government operations. So a reasonable approach to this would be to set up regulations for aircraft that are not controlled by unaided direct line of sight from the ground or that are operated commercially.  Instead it appears the comitee proposed altitude restictions on everything including kites, weight limits, limits of propulsion etc etc.

Point is here, if the government is feels the burning need to regulate toy airplanes (sorry RC guys, but lets face it) based on zero examples of them being a safety risk, think of what will come of you and your airplane that homeland security already feels is a threat. General aviation kills lots of people every year, model airplanes... uhhh... well none.. Like where this is going?

You guys need to be writing you congressman now, before the NPRM. If certian government agencies have enough budget to be proposing regulations like this, well they might have a few surplus people. If those agencies feel they have the people to enforce them, then they REALLY have too many people. But, if you idly sit by and let people start slapping N numbers on model planes when no reasonable person would ever conclude a danger exists, then you have no moral posistion to complain when they start chipping away at your freedom.

 



James Rosenow
IAC MemberAirVenture Volunteer
18
Posts
2
#19 Posted: 2/24/2011 15:40:39

With all due respect, Scott.."based on zero examples of them being a safety risk"?  Submitted for your approval....comments 13 and 16 above.

Having flown the Hudson corridor my personal observation is that any RC in that airspace would be a hazard, from the surface on up.  The usage starts at the river.

Your statement "General aviation kills lots of people every year, model airplanes... uhhh... well none.." should probably be amended, given the current higher, faster, farther technology for models to 'not yet'.  Do we need to wait till that happens?

I certainly hope no one wants to restrict our modeling hobby any more than it has to be to prevent such a potential tragedy.  I agree that to do so would be a trmendous waste of man-power.

If you'll hold the birds still, I'll attach the N-numbers!  :-)

Jim



Scott Fohrman
IAC MemberVintage Aircraft Association MemberWarbirds of America MemberHomebuilder or CraftsmanAirVenture Volunteer
34
Posts
14
#20 Posted: 2/24/2011 16:57:12

James

You have set the bar very low for your defintion of "potential tragedy.."  Perhaps you should consider a career at EASA. or TSA.

And by the same token, I really hope no one regulates you "any more than you need to be to prevent a potential tragedy."

 

This is disheartening in the extreme...Oh c'mon someone cheer me up out here - has aviation become a community of people unwilling to standup for themselves? Are we willing to just standbye and say nothing as every facet of aviation becomes so regulated that we become Europe? TSA is here to stay?

I think I wil go back and work on cars again - That was easier and people were not afraid of toys,



1  2  Next Page >