Old Photos

Whoa....that's way cool, Dave.  A couple of my thoughts:

The plane looks to me to be a Sopwith 1 1/2 strutter.   It was originally designed as a two-seat fighter, and eventually became a popular trainer, used by several nations.  Check out the Wikipedia article.   

The uniforms are interesting.  I don't think the guys next to the plane are wearing British uniforms, and they don't really look French, either.  It's hard to tell around WWI, as many pilots were transferred to the air services from normal army units, and often kept wearing their cavalry, hussar, or infantry uniforms.  Could be from any number of countries.  The guy on the ground is interesting; it doesn't look like his uniform coat has any upper pockets.

The second picture shows uniforms clearer, but we don't know if this picture is related at all to the one of the Sopwith.  The guy with the dog looks like me might be wearing some sort of wings above his pocket.  Note that the unforms are of different styles...see the collars, buttons, and pocket locations.  But the belts are almost identical.  They're both wearing shoulder cords, though of different styles.   Man on the left has boots, man on the right either has low-cut shoes or isn't blousing his trousers.

Two things interesting in the background.  The resolution isn't enough to tell, but do you suppose that's a display of "girlie" pictures on the bulletin board?  Also, just to the left of the left man's head, you can see a European-style light switch.  If the photo was taken in the WWI era, this is probably not a rural house and thus probably not close to the front.

Neat photo's!, 

I think Ron is right about the Sopwith, for some strange reason I think I have seen the guy on the right in the second photo before...maybe a famous French Ace.  This is going to drive me crazy and I will be going through some old publications I have on the early post-WWI era.  The guy on the left in that picture is holding a small dog, maybe a "doxie".

Thanks for the post!

Joe

Good eye Ron!  With a magnifying glass you can see girlie pictures or postcards on the bulletin board

 It's not a good eye, as much as an active imagination....

 Gotta echo something Joe said:  The guy on the right, in the second picture, is familiar.  He looks a little like Rene Fonck, but after going back and forth with some photos online, I don't think it's really him.

 The guy's uniform bugs the heck out of me.   I can't tell if his coat has a flat (modern) collar, or it's a stand-up collar (typical WWI) and he's just got it unbuttoned.  I'm thinking it's the latter, since no tie is visible where the collar lies open.  But it's a different style and color from the other guy's.  They're probably not two men in the same unit...but why are they having their picture taken together?  They could be a couple of brothers from separate units, but they don't look related.

 They're both wearing shoulder cords.  Aiguillettes are used to denote staff officers (such as the aide to a general) but the fourragère is awarded to combat units that distinguish themselves.  These look more like the latter, the guy on the left is wearing his with the loop over the shoulder, which usually means that he was a member of the unit when it gained the honor.

 As I mentioned earlier the guy the on the left looks like he's wearing wings.  Can you "Zoom in" on your high-resolution image and post a close-up of the badge?  That may help us narrow down what country they're with.

When I first looked at the guys standing with the Sopwith, I thought, "They look like Polish uniforms."  I see the Wikipedia article says that the Poles *did* use the 1 1/2 strutters during the Polish-Soviet war in 1919-1920 (which would correspond to the dates on the photo).  Still, I was unable to find any Polish uniforms of the era that looked anything like these.

It's interesting to note that the Sopwith does not have the fabric covering over the spokes of the wheels.  This could indicate a training environment, where the wheels have to be fixed more often.....

I just  couldn't fine a photo of Fonec, did find one of Georges Guynemer, and there is some slight resemblance but he was killed in 1917.  Fonec died in 1953, so maybe a possibility.  The only other name that comes to mind is Charles Nungesser, he was very well known and was killed in 1927 trying to cross the Atlantic.  I've found several photo's of him and he is not the guy we're seeing in the second photo on the right!

Joe

Spelling, mon vieux....

http://www.acepilots.com/wwi/fr_fonck.html

We don't really know the date of the photo (only the one with a Sopwith has a date, and we don't know if the two are related), so this doesn't necessary rule out Guynemer.  However, the uniforms don't appear to be WWI French.

Joe & Ron,

It's neat  that you find the photos as interesting as I do.  Thanks for your great comments and ideas.  If you're interested and send me your e-mail address I'll send you a higher resolution copy.

Some additional info:  Although it doesn't prove the photos are connected, the photos were glued to a singlt piece of construction type paper.  The paper appears old but not as old as the photos.  The photos are both approx 3 X 5 inch.  The wings are still not very clear even looking at the original photos with a magnifying glass.

Happy Easter,

Dave

dave@bassukbrothers.com

Ron, 

You're right about the uniforms, the French pilots had little winged rondels on the collars and I don't see those on these photo's.  I'm not sure whose uniforms their wearing, certainly not German!  The best image I've found on Guynemer is actually a very favorable image probably on a poster, he was a young hero and the French needed to enlist lots of men throughout the war.  The guy in our photo isn't nearly as good looking as the image, but still there is some resemblance.  I also noticed somekind of "dazzle" on the side of the Sopwith in the first pic, can't really make out what it is, looks like a ring or circle but can't see anything inside it.

These photo's are really a piece of history as we approach the 100th anniversary of the start of WWI.  It would be great if somebody could identify these people, we need the "History Detectives" to dig through and find the answers.

Joe

If you look REEEAL close to the date, you will see a name in front of it. NOT behind it.

To me, it appears to say Ensmore 12-4-21.

Or maybe 31.

Just to add to the detective work.

Corey

Corey,

I can make out the date, looks like 12-7-21, I checked the name "Ensmore" in my copy of "Who's Who in Aviation" but no "Ensmore" listed, there is a guy named Robert Albert Charles Esnault-Pelterie who was a French aviator who was pretty well known in the 20's and early 30's.  The signature on the photo is pretty faded and hard to read the old cursive.  Best I can do, with my old eyes and limited resources!

Joe

The writing is interesting; the date seems to work reading in either orientation... 12-4-21 one way, or 12-17-21 the other.

The name isn't necessarily that of a person...it's just as likely to be a *location*.  Reading with the right edge up, it does appears to be "xxxxmore".  Could even be "Livermore," but that don't look like California.

I notice a couple of things.  First, it looks to me like the Sopwith has bullet holes in the fuselage just ahead of the front cockpit.  The "30" on the aircraft looks more French than British to me, and I know the French used a lot more of them than anyone else.  Maybe the guys that shot it down or forced it to land i.e. Germans or Austrians?

The date and the writing look to me like 15-7-21.  Not European because the 7 isn't crossed, and not American because it would have been 7-15-21 if it really is a date.  So likely English/Canadian/Australian.  I think the word is "Beausing" likely someone's name.  There was a William Beausang in Australia who was a pilot and engineer for Frank Kingsford Smith in the 1920's, also collected a lot of photos of aviation-related things.

The two guys in the inside picture seem to be wearing totally different uniforms but both seem to have the same chevron on the cuff of the sleeve.  I don't see any wings or brevet on the one on the right, the guy on the left had some type of badge above his left breast pocket which I don't recognize but could be a pilot or observer's brevet.

More food for thought, this is interesting!

                                         Tony

I have been Googling the past couple of hours and my eyes won't stay up.  The uniforms on the seated men are (99% sure) French.  The collar, button arangement and belt buckle  atch French uniforms.  The aircraft is possibly a French license built 1.B1 singles eat bombing version of the 11/2 strutter.   Some went to US forces.  Could pilots possibly be Layfette Escadrille?  Planes were used post war in various Air forces and early 20's wars.

Dunno, Mike, the uniforms don't seem to match the French styles I've seen.  However, during that era, there was a LOT of variation.  Plus, officers were free to have their own custom examples.

I was digging around online and found what might be an interesting clue.  Check out this WWI French pilot's uniform:

http://warrelics.eu/forum/military_photos/aviation-history-general/69747d1260857855-ww1-french-pilot-tunic-hat-french-pilot-1.jpg 

The style of the uniform...collar, pockets, belt, etc...doesn't match the uniforms in the second photo.  BUT LOOK AT THE PILOT BADGE.  It does roughly match that blob over the man's pocket.  This could indicate that at least one of the uniforms is French, and the wearer a pilot.

I'll gently disagree, Ron - those fit French WWI uniforms pretty closely.

First, cuffs on the sleeves that folded outwards is uniquely French.

Second, high collar that folded down (the fellow on the right has his unbuttoned - what's the statute of limitations for uniform wear violations?)

Third, single row buttons and pockets match French uniforms.  Looking closely, one can see the large lower pockets.

Fourth, I concur they're pilot wings; note that the fellow is also wearing high boots, which were pretty much standard for pilots regardless of where they intially came from, rather than low boots and wrappings for leggings.  Our fellow on the right has neglected his, but in a lot of aviation photos the guys are shown not wearing them.

Guessing shades of colors can be a lost cause with French uniforms of the era, I'm afraid.  They didn't have a standarized palette as the did in the 1930's - the famous "Horizon Blue" was defined to manufacturers as being "five degrees above the horizon on a sunny day" - and so it varied quite a bit between units and where they purchased uniforms.  Privately purchased uniforms could be even farther off from the norm.  Existing uniforms run from a dark blue to almost a gray!

Add in that in aviation units one wore whatever uniform they arrived with - so if one were part of the Artillery, it would be one variation; if from the Infantry, another, etc.

[edit]

I'll link some great photos of French pilot casual group shots later on - what a mish-mash of uniforms in all styles of wear!

I have no clue on the airplane, but reminds me of the reel of 8 movie film I donated to EAA in about 1974.of the Red Baron and his Tri-plane.  It showed him landing, getting out of the tri-plane and posing for the camera.   Wonder if EAA still has the reel of film?

Ralph

Nice photos. I am currently looking for photos of the Pan Am China Clipper. Also trying to find out the best place to see pictures on display of the China Clipper or other artifacts from it's time flying the Pacific. Does anyone know of museums on the subject? Also believe there is something to see at the old Alameda base. Any information on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

Peter

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