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Deutz air cooled diesels

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Dave Mikkelson
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#1 Posted: 11/20/2010 13:59:13

Forgive me... and maybe they are simply too heavy... but has anyone researched these torque monsters for aviation?  I'm sure someone has... but then I do have a mill and tend to think outside the box all the time.  Simple engines.... just looked at a old european truck from the 70s I think it was...   V8... quotes only 230 hp BUT 700 ft/lb of torque, and torque at 2500 rpm (or so) is what we fly.  Just curious and too ignorant yet to know...but then the tinkerer in me says that the crank, cyl and heads etc could be installed in a custom aluminum crankcase and lightened it up... maybe the numbers just aren't there... but my curiosity hurts...so I had to ask.

 

 

Dave

"Nothing is impossible... but practicality might be another issue"



Patrick Panzera
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#2 Posted: 11/20/2010 16:18:00

Hi Dave,

Weight is usually the enemy of converting a diesel for aviation, that's one reason we don't see too many flying. and if they are purpose-built for aviation (being made light enough for a competitive power/weight ratio) the are just too costly.

And the 700 pounds of torque from a 230hp engine turning 2500 RPM is not possible. 

Horsepower is just a way to express work (torque) done over a period of time (RPM)

To find horsepower:

                                Torque x RPM

Horsepower =    ---------------------

                                      5252


To find torque from a known horsepower @ a given RPM:


                 5252 x horsepower

torque= --------------------------

                             RPM

So if the engine is really making "only 230 hp" @ 2500 rpm, torque has to be 483. 

These numbers are nearly identical to one of the lower HP versions of the TIO-540.

If the engine in question is really making 700 lbs of torque @ 2500, hp would be 333.

My guess is that the engine is making 700 lbs of toque but at a more "diesel" speed of 1750 RPM. 

That would work for 230 HP and if were swinging a really huge prop, it could power a plane direct drive.


Pat.





Dave Mikkelson
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#3 Posted: 11/20/2010 17:13:04 Modified: 11/20/2010 17:15:30

 

This what  the guy on U-tube was saying.  I'm sure he could be wrong, but what I liked about it was that each cyclinder/head/valve train was independent.  The interior between the V was just air ducting and place to put the injector pump.... just seemed to have possibilities. Maybe he is wrong on his numbers, but what would happen if all this (crank, rods, cylinders, cam etc... was installed in an aluminum crank cage instead of cast iron?  Yea, I think outside the box.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAKdmM21UgI

"You're looking at a 1979 Deutz F8L413F engine, V8 aircooled diesel, naturally aspirated, 770 cubic inches, 750 ft/bs of torque, 230 hp @ 2300 rpm. It comes out of an Atlas Copco air compressor. "

Check out the video... nice sound too, but then I've spent more than just a few hours on top of several diesels roughly double this size.  While these were semi truck engines and turbo'd... they ran just as well at ~11000 ft (I70 west of Denver) al the way down to sea level....

Just seems it needs to be researched...

Dave

 

 

 



Patrick Panzera
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#4 Posted: 11/20/2010 18:17:41

If we are going to believe his numbers, then we have to assume that peak torque (700 lbs) does not occur at peak horsepower (230) or max RPM (2300)

Potentially, the engine makes its peak toque at 1200 rpm (160 hp), but horsepower continues to rise as RPM rises to it's max of 2300 while torque falls.

A quick Google for  "diesel horsepower graph" netted a chart that shows almost exatly this.


Here's a link to the page:

http://www.frontierpower.com/library/makingsense.htm

As for an aluminum crankcase idea, pound-for-pound, steel is stronger than aluminum and the case would have to be strong enough to take the high-compression pounding from a diesel engine. Odds are good that to make the aluminum case strong enough, it would be as heavy as the original, with the end result costing more and weighing more than a new TIO-540. One would be better served with a new 350hp all-aluminum Chevrolet V8 that costs $5000. 

Pat




Robert Dingley
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#5 Posted: 11/21/2010 21:21:58

How about one intended for aero use? This was sent to me.

Raikhlin  RED AO3

500 HP

Wt 705 lbs

To be tested on a YAK 52.

http://dieselair.com/index.html

Bob



Dave Mikkelson
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#6 Posted: 11/21/2010 23:06:38

That looks to be a very fine endevor... hopefully successful... it sure is nice and compact for a V16.  Its nice to see what new money and research are doing.

 

But I do not have a multi- million dollar research and design department... I have a need/want.... no money to speak of... but I do have excellent design and modification skills, and the desire build up a low cost reliable (read as already proven in other applications...and yes I know aviation is different...that's why I'm basing in industrial workhorses... or more precisely, their components for which parts are available... likely at least 20 years old and retired from its original task.  Still wonder about the deutz cylinder/head assemblies on a radial crank... maybe lightened and converted to

The example I mentioned earlier just happened to be of that of a large CI med hp class... I'm actually look to better what I can get from a Corvair conversion and develop TO hp in the 150 hp range, but stay inside the LSA confines.

 



Patrick Panzera
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#7 Posted: 11/22/2010 11:37:07
Dave Mikkelson wrote:

 

But I do not have a multi- million dollar research and design department... I have a need/want.... no money to speak of... but I do have excellent design and modification skills, and the desire build up a low cost reliable (read as already proven in other applications...

<snip>

The example I mentioned earlier just happened to be of that of a large CI med hp class... I'm actually look to better what I can get from a Corvair conversion and develop TO hp in the 150 hp range, but stay inside the LSA confines.

 

Consider joining two VW engines to make a flat 8.



Robert Dingley
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#8 Posted: 11/22/2010 12:30:39

Tinkerer, curious, Think outside the the box? Dave, you are just what we need . As for me, I just want to break out of this 100LL #@% and the &$#@ ethanol-in-my-gas. Diesel/Jet A may be our only hope. Chew on this:

http://www.experimentalaircraft.info/articles/aircraft-engines-auto-ignition.php 

Bob



Dave Mikkelson
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#9 Posted: 11/22/2010 21:00:30 Modified: 11/22/2010 21:04:46

Hummm...  off the top of my head...  Can the crank in the front engine handle the added torque being passed through it from the rear engine... or were you thinking designing and new crank all together?  I think the prop gyro forces would be a  problem too since it would be much bigger than what a single 75hp will turn (if using the stock cranks back to back)...

I know the multi-engine crank to crank line-up for the pullers can twist off the crank of the third engine...

Do you (or anyone) know if this has been done yet with VWs?

Dave

 

 



Tom Hackel
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#10 Posted: 11/22/2010 23:50:13

2 VW's will cut hard into the 1320 lb diet. [450lb + with all the trimmings]

A Turbo VW 21++cc with smart mixture and oil controls would be by far the most cost effective engine. IMO.

Plans for the Poliwagon show a 168mph cruise with a 126 ci revmaster turbo. [ This may be a bit ambitious for 3.3 gph]

Power to weight, give all your reasonable CC's a turbo is very hard to beat.



Patrick Panzera
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#11 Posted: 11/24/2010 17:01:18
Tom Hackel wrote:

 

2 VW's will cut hard into the 1320 lb diet. [450lb + with all the trimmings]



 

Single place LSA should be fine.

Pat

 





Craig Morton
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#13 Posted: 11/24/2010 19:32:04

Patrick Panzera. Now there is a blast from the past. I used to follow your posts on some Corvair group years ago. I recall you had one of the smaller Corvairs that you had polished until it sparkled. I forget what airframe you were working on. It seems like you had scrapped one and started another? I think I headed off on some military deployment and never returned to the Corvair group. So, then, how did that Corvair project end up? Or maybe it is like my projects and is still waiting for completion.

 

Craig



Patrick Panzera
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#14 Posted: 11/24/2010 21:21:40

 I read the article earlier today and have not found anything that shows that they have an actual product. 

I did find this however:

 http://www.manta.com/c/mtccxmy/engineered-propulsion-systems-inc

It says they've been in biz 3 years, have two employees and have annual sales of $110,000.

I won't be getting my hopes up. If and when they do have a product, I'm sure it will be crazy expensive. 

I aslo found this article:

http://westernwisconsin.kstp.com/content/nr-engine-developers-ready-produce-prototype

Image shows a horizontally oppose DOHC flat eight with what appears to be a geared drive and variable cam timing. 



Kurt Goodfellow
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#15 Posted: 11/24/2010 21:32:06

I have been flying my Wilksch WAM 120 diesel / Jet A - powered RV9 for over two years now, 200 hours. I absolutely love it! I cruise at 160 mph TAS, burning 5 gph or less.  I burn diesel in the summer, Jet A in the winter. My plane weighs in under 1000 lbs, lighter than many Lyc powered RV's. So diesels, when designed for aviation, can be light enough.

I believe that diesel is the future for GA aircraft. It's a safer fuel, very efficient.  So far, there has been no down-side to the WAM engine in my RV9, at least for me. It starts well in the cold weather, it's direct drive (no gearbox), no electronic controls (all mechanical), so does not require any electricity to run optimally.

Kurt



kgood
Patrick Panzera
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#16 Posted: 11/24/2010 21:35:13
Craig Morton wrote:

 

Patrick Panzera. Now there is a blast from the past. I used to follow your posts on some Corvair group years ago. I recall you had one of the smaller Corvairs that you had polished until it sparkled. I forget what airframe you were working on. It seems like you had scrapped one and started another? I think I headed off on some military deployment and never returned to the Corvair group. So, then, how did that Corvair project end up? Or maybe it is like my projects and is still waiting for completion.

 

Craig

 

Yep, that would be me.

The engine was built origionally for a Quickie Q2 and FWF in the photo was developed for the Q. But I had a partner in the project who moved away so I sold it and kept the engine. Since then I've been distracted with other projects closer to being finished, and I took on the publishing of CONTACT! Magazine and now EAA's Experimenter eNewsletter. 


 




Jim Pantas
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#17 Posted: 11/25/2010 21:09:36

Has anyone tried to put a Subaru Diesel in their aircraft yet?

 

BoxerDiesel.com 



-Jim "A day without flight is like a day without sunshine..."
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#18 Posted: 11/26/2010 13:27:04

On the lighter end of this discussion, in Europe the Smart Car is offered with an 850cc three cylinder turbo diesel that produces somewhere in the 60-80 hp range. This might be a possible candidate for LSA sized aircraft.



Tom Hackel
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#19 Posted: 11/27/2010 19:27:14

The VW Rabbit diesel .... with turbo was a runner, without was still good... Accelerated those buggers like mad it the day. Not finding engine weight right away, but should be cheap when you find one. Your going to rebuild anyway. pump and injectors....



Jim Pantas
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#20 Posted: 11/27/2010 21:33:49
Tom Hackel wrote:

 

The VW Rabbit diesel .... with turbo was a runner, without was still good... Accelerated those buggers like mad it the day. Not finding engine weight right away, but should be cheap when you find one. Your going to rebuild anyway. pump and injectors....

I recently helped a friend build a turbo diesel rabbit into a racecar, the engine weighed 268lbs w/o alternator or flywheel.  It produced ~110hp at 3500 rpm



-Jim "A day without flight is like a day without sunshine..."
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