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Wow....! Not Cool in my Books to bash someone in public! Specially someone with certified manufacturing experience and Greg Hale.

Posted By:
#1 Posted: 6/23/2011 15:26:57

 http://www.facebook.com/notes/vans-aircraft-inc/what-price-a-masterpiece-by-dick-vangrunsven/237594966250883

In June, an article entitled  “Mod Masterpiece,” appeared in Sport Aviation.  It extolled many features of the absolutely gorgeous interior that Greg Hale built into his award-winning RV-10. Unfortunately (perhaps unwittingly) the article drew our attention more to the price he paid than his admittedly wonderful workmanship and customization. No, I’m not referring to the usual costs measured in dollars and building time.  I’m referring to the price that airplane builders often pay in reduced utility and, more important, in impaired safety.  

The article started with a pull-quote: “The RV-10 impressed us since you could load four passengers and bags and be well within the maximum gross weight and CG.”   Normally, that’s true. An RV-10 usually weighs about 1600 lbs empty, so with its rated 2700 lb gross it has an 1100 lb useful load.  That translates into four 170 lb people, sixty gallons of fuel, and sixty pounds of baggage. But given what article goes on to describe, this quote appears increasingly ironic.

   Mr. Hale’s modifications and additions had a dramatic effect on the empty weight of his RV-10.  The reported empty weight of 1848 lbs -- 248 lbs over the 1600 lbs that we’d consider “standard.”  This translates into the equivalent of 1½ passengers who must be left behind or 41 gallons of fuel, which must remain on the ground if the airplane is to remain within the design gross weight limit of 2700 lbs.  With full standard fuel tanks, his RV-10 effectively becomes a 2-seat airplane. Then, we noticed the spec sheet accompanying the article giving the fuel capacity as 120 gallons!  If this is accurate, it means that, in addition to the cabin interior modifications, Mr. Hale apparently installed additional fuel tanks in his RV-10 and doubled the standard sixty gallons.  With 120 gallons on board, his RV-10’s payload would be further reduced to a 132 lbs -- not even a single-seater anymore.

Here’s another, perhaps more appropriate, quote: “You can’t have your cake and eat it too.”

Many builders will tell you that it is not possible to meet the factory empty weight figures.  In some instances this may be true – some kit suppliers have been known to optimistically quote an empty weight based on an unfinished and unequipped prototype, or weights that could never be equaled by subsequent builders.  But the 1600 lb. empty weight Van’s Aircraft quotes for a 260 HP Lycoming-powered RV-10 is realistic.    An example is my personal RV-10, built from a standard kit and employing no special weight saving efforts.  It weighs, empty, just 1595 lbs.  This includes full paint, wheel fairings, EFIS instrumentation, radio, transponder, GPS, 2-axis autopilot, ELT, an intercom system w/CD, carpeting and headliner, and landing lights.  Though it may seem spartan to some, it is comfortable and totally functional for long-distance VFR flight, day or night. 

From long experience we anticipate that builders will customize, and will add weight in the process.  This does not mean that there are not compromises or penalties involved.  At the very least, any added weight will subtract from the useful load of the airplane.  This is the reason that so many 4-seat factory airplanes cannot fly with full seats and full fuel at the same time.  But for homebuilt aircraft, this is a compromise any builder has the freedom to make, and many do. But adding 248 lbs of  “stuff” in the example above is rather extreme.  It is the equivalent of adding the weight of an entire ultra-light, engine and all.  It’s almost equivalent to adding another pair of RV-10 wings. 

The spec sheet also notes Mr. Hale’s airplane has a listed gross weight of 2800 lbs instead of the 2700 lbs the factory specifies.  Yes, we realize that a builder of an Experimental Amateur-Built airplane can list any gross weight or flight limits he wishes.  It’s just that we don’t accept that.  Our factory specified gross weight is based on the best science we have available.  This includes careful stress analysis calculations and extensive static load and flight limit testing.  By way of contrast, we wonder what basis Mr. Hale (or any other builder who uses a higher-than-recommended gross weight) uses for establishing the 2800 lb gross weight of his airplane?  If it isn’t based on the same science and testing, we simply cannot recognize it as valid, and neither should anyone else.   Any “penciled in” gross weight increase is just wishful thinking.  The laws of physics are not repealed by wishful thinking.

But this discussion of payload trade-offs is not the primary purpose of this paper.  While we hate to see our laboriously designed 4-seat payload erode to a 2 1/2 seat limit, that is the builder’s privilege.  Our primary purpose here is to point out several modifications made to primary flight control systems and safety features.  We feel these are detrimental to safety, and that readers and other RV-10 builders should be aware of our concerns.   Modifications undertaken for otherwise good reasons can have negative consequences.

Specifically, we see a real problem with the front seat shoulder harness attach modification.  As designed the RV-10 uses a two-strap shoulder harness attached to a hard point in the structural cabin top. We used the two-strap (one over each shoulder) harness because it is the universal aircraft standard and has been demonstrated to be superior to the automotive style single cross strap.  Anchoring the harness to a hard point in the cabin top provides a near ideal load path for crash restraint forces. (See illustration 1.)

The subject airplane uses a single cross shoulder harness anchored to a hard point in the fuselage under and aft of the seat.  The strength of the anchor point is somewhat irrelevant in this installation, because the load path (see illustration #2) essentially applies the crash loads to the top of the seat back.  The low anchor point for the shoulder harness causes the tension in the strap to bear down on the occupant’s spine, and to pull forward on the top of the seat back.  The back of the Oregon Aero seat supplied in the RV-10 kit was not designed to withstand shoulder harness crash impact acceleration forces.  When the seat back fails, the upper body will pitch forward because the shoulder harness essentially becomes slack.   While some automotive seats do apply the shoulder harness loads to the top of the seat backs, we assume that those heavy automotive seats have been adequately designed and tested for this purpose.  The RV-10 seats have been designed and tested by Oregon Aero, Inc.  to withstand anticipated crash impact loads of the occupant, but not acceleration loads transmitted through shoulder harnesses.

Another safety feature of the Oregon Aero seats is the foam used to make the cushions.  Its type, density, and lamination schedule have been carefully tailored and tested to absorb vertical impact loads.  Any changes or replacements may not provide equivalent protection.

In addition, the modification made to the active seat belt attach points is suspect.  Our design provides for each belt attached directly to anchor points in the airframe structure.  Anticipated crash acceleration loads are transferred in linear tension into these hard points.   In the subject airplane, the seat belts are attached to a small diameter cross shaft between the intended structural hard points. (See photo 1)  Crash acceleration loads will be applied normal to this cross shaft, loading it in bending, which in turn will apply eccentric (twisting) loads to the mounting brackets in the cabin structure.

The rear seat shoulder harness modification of the subject airplane also uses a single cross-strap rather than the standard RV-10 dual-strap harness.   The load path into the airframe is again an unknown – in contrast to the static load testing performed on the factory supplied harness assemblies.  These transmit loads linearly to the aft fuselage structure.

Another worrying modification altered the attachment of the rudder cables to the rudder pedals.  Mr. Hale used an offset stud (see photo 2) on the rudder pedal to which the rudder cable is attached.  While this may provide a more attractive cabin appearance, it causes an inferior load path for the rudder control forces.  Cable tension loads will apply a twisting force to the rudder pedal attach horn.

While we’re on the subject of modifications and how they might affect safety, let’s go back to that question of sixty extra gallons of fuel. There is a cute saying in aviation that “the only time you have too much fuel is when your airplane is on fire”.  Unfortunately, this is not entirely accurate.  The most obvious exception comes when the fuel load causes an over gross weight condition that adversely affects performance and flight safety.  Even if the additional fuel weight is within gross weight and C.G. limits, the location of the added weight can adversely affect the aircraft’s polar moment of inertia.  Reduced to its most understandable form, it means that the spin recovery characteristics of the aircraft will be affected.  While the article never says where the extra fuel goes in this RV-10, the most likely place for additional fuel tanks would be in the outer sections of the wing—outboard of the standard wing root leading edge tanks.  With regard to the polar moment of inertia, this is possibly the worst place (other than in the tail) to add weight to an airplane.  Also, weight added anywhere in the wing will affect the flutter characteristics of the wing.  The RV-10 wing has been subjected to Ground Vibration Testing (GVT) with standard tanks both full and empty.  With significant weight of any kind, structural or otherwise, added to the wing, the flutter speed limits will change – and until the new arrangement is tested, nobody knows what the new limits will be.

Like many kitplane suppliers, we endeavor to supply very complete, thoroughly designed and tested airframe kits.  It is our hope that builders will construct the airframe assemblies in compliance our proven design.  Most do.  Details such as instrumentation, avionics, and cabin interior appointment are often not included in kits because we know from experience that builders have very special individual preferences for these details.  These are areas where builders can usually express their individuality without as much concern for safety of flight as would be the case with changes to the structure or aerodynamics.  I say usually because even any seemingly insignificant part of an aircraft can affect safety of flight.  With reasonable care interior appointments will remain benign.

We all know that builders of Experimental Amateur-Built aircraft have the right to make changes to their aircraft at will – whether or not their changes are based on good science.  If they choose to operate the aircraft with a lesser or unknown margin of safety, that is their prerogative.  However, unless the aircraft is single-seat, any passengers carried in that aircraft will be exposed to the same unknowns that the pilot has accepted for himself.  We feel that this is a responsibility often overlooked by pilots.  While they may be willing to accept certain risks for themselves, what should their responsibility be to their spouses, friends, children, and grandchildren?  

SIDEBAR:  WHO OWNS THE MARGIN?

It seems common practice among homebuilders to second-guess the factory engineers, particularly regarding gross weight increases.  Because of all of the “I gotta have” added features, empty weight creep erodes the aircraft’s useful load.   The simple solution for the homebuilder is to “pencil in” a new gross weight limit.  It’s only 100 lbs. (3.7%) more; how much effect can that possibly have?”  Imagine this example: you are on a mid-size airliner with a gross weight of 270,000 lbs.  Just before leaving the gate, the captain comes on the PA system and says: “we’ve overbooked more than usual today, so we’re going to assume that the factory engineers over-designed this airplane and allowed an abundant safety margin. We’re going to take off at 280,000 lbs. instead.   So move over, there are 50 more passengers coming on board.”  Run the numbers; it’s the same over-weight ratio as simply pencilling in an additional 100 lbs to the gross weight of an RV-10.

Along with gross weight increases, some builders take the same liberties with horsepower increases and speed increases, betting their lives on the assumption that the airplane is designed with a huge margin of safety---it is really far stronger than in needs to be.  This is not really true.  Certificated aircraft, and well-designed kit aircraft, are designed to withstand limit loads at specified maximum weights.    During testing, they are subjected to ultimate loads, which are higher than design limit loads by a specified margin.  Yes, there is a margin between the design and ultimate strengths.   But that margin belongs to the engineer.  He owns the margin.  It is his insurance against the things he doesn’t know or can’t plan for, and the pilot’s insurance against human error, material variations, and the ravages of time.  Wise pilots respect this design safety philosophy and leave this insurance policy in effect by operating strictly within established limits.  They don’t try to steal the margin from the designers.



N202MK Giles 202 S/N 11 Owner
Todd Stovall
Young Eagles Pilot or VolunteerHomebuilder or Craftsman
49
Posts
7
#2 Posted: 6/24/2011 10:25:05

Van’s article has been discussed at length in a thread (16 pages worth to include modeling results out of SolidWorks) over on VAF:
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=73492

While I don’t necessary agree with how Van wrote the article, I implicitly trust him and his engineers so his opinions, regardless of how presented, carry much weight with me. All I can really say is that I’m building my RV-10 basically according to the plans to include following Van’s GW limitations. YMMV.....



RV-10 N728TT (reserved), Emp/Tailcone & Wings done, working on the Fuse. Location: Dumfries, VA (suburb of DC), EAA Ch 186
#3 Posted: 6/24/2011 11:19:24

I respect DV very much and he is entitled to his opinion in a private manner,  but his public Facebook post was just borderline character assasination!

I also respect Greg Hale which has demonstrated the true spirit of EAA and what Experimentals and Homebuilds are all about.  Greg has the experience and he had  someone agreed with him when he was given his Pink  AWC.

Bashing someone in public  is not proper.  Greg has the right to do as he wants with his aircraft as an experimental aircraft under the privileges given to him by the FAA....He is the builder not Dick. He is the one on the hook not Dick.   He is a long time career A&P and Aeronautical Pro having worked for Beechcraft designing aircraft structures.....  I doubt he approached this porject as light as some wants to portrait.  VERY UNFAIR PUBLIC CRUCIFICTION !!

I am happy you are following your RV10 according to plans, if thats your level of expetise please dont deviate from it if you dont feel confortable. Lots of "experts" ready to help! Be very careful with most......

At the end, Greg dream's was the same as yours.  Too bad someone ruined his trip already!

Congrats to EAA for recognizing Greg's labor of love.

 

disclaimer...I dont know Greg at all other than from Sport Aviation featured piece.

 

 



N202MK Giles 202 S/N 11 Owner
Ron Wanttaja
246
Posts
98
#4 Posted: 6/24/2011 12:07:36
Miroslav Velickovich wrote:

 

I respect DV very much and he is entitled to his opinion in a private manner,  but his public Facebook post was just borderline character assasination!

How is it it "Character Assassination"? I didn't see a word about Mr. Hale personally.  This is not "Bashing," it's pointing out the engineering issues involved in a modification of an aircraft, by the person who understands the engineering design of the aircraft the best.

What are the *counter*-arguments to Mr. Van Grunsven's assertions?  Let's take a look at one of them:

Specifically, we see a real problem with the front seat shoulder harness attach modification.  As designed the RV-10 uses a two-strap shoulder harness attached to a hard point in the structural cabin top. We used the two-strap (one over each shoulder) harness because it is the universal aircraft standard and has been demonstrated to be superior to the automotive style single cross strap.  Anchoring the harness to a hard point in the cabin top provides a near ideal load path for crash restraint forces. (See illustration 1.)

The subject airplane uses a single cross shoulder harness anchored to a hard point in the fuselage under and aft of the seat.... The low anchor point for the shoulder harness causes the tension in the strap to bear down on the occupant’s spine, and to pull forward on the top of the seat back.  The back of the Oregon Aero seat supplied in the RV-10 kit was not designed to withstand shoulder harness crash impact acceleration forces.  When the seat back fails, the upper body will pitch forward because the shoulder harness essentially becomes slack. 

Tell  me *why* this isn't true.

And I'll point out that the issue Mr. VanGrunsven raises here is almost EXACTLY one that Tony Bingelis addressed in one of his articles (spine compression with low-mounted shoulder harnesses).  Is Bingelis guilty of "Character Assassination," too... despite having died before the RV-10 design was even started?

 

 




Ron Wanttaja
#5 Posted: 6/24/2011 16:33:34

One Word Ron..............EXPERIMENTAL!



N202MK Giles 202 S/N 11 Owner
Ron Wanttaja
246
Posts
98
#6 Posted: 6/24/2011 17:19:31
Miroslav Velickovich wrote:

 

One Word Ron..............EXPERIMENTAL!

So you're saying that if the airplane is licensed as Experimental, the builder should be immune from criticism?  That if I see a homebuilt with frayed control cables or missing bolts, I shouldn't say anything?  That every homebuilt that shows up at AirVenture should get a Lindy, like a first-grader's sports league? 

I've got Home Depot wood in my Fly Baby, and a bunch of the small hardware (screws, washers, etc.) came from the same source.  Some of my fuses and holders came from NAPA auto parts.   I'm confident enough in the components, but don't demand that no one criticizes my choices.

Many builders push the envelope in the search of better performance...but from the summary you posted, it sounds like some of Mr. Hale's decisions potentially compromised safety solely to make the plane look prettier.  It's his right to do so, but I don't think the designer of the aircraft should be prevented from providing his own views about the modifications.

The accident rate for homebuilt aircraft is about 46% higher than General Aviation as a whole (seven TIMES higher, according to AOPA) and our fatality rate (percentage of accidents that result in death) is almost 40% higher.  I think a bit more attention to safety is a good thing....




Ron Wanttaja
Dick Anderson
Homebuilder or Craftsman
74
Posts
14
#7 Posted: 6/24/2011 21:21:29

 Mr. Hale is the listed manufacturer of this aircraft. Though based on an RV-10 kit, it has been highly modified, especially by raising the gross weight. I would suggest that he call the aircraft a "GH-10" or some other name to differentiate it from a "typical" RV-10. A good precedent is the Harmon Rocket, another highly modified  RV aircraft. Van's Aircraft is well within their rights to comment on the modifications and express their concerns. Other kit manufacturers have faced this same dilemma, example: Burt Rutan...



Dick Anderson
David Darnell
61
Posts
18
#8 Posted: 6/24/2011 22:52:10

   A few thoughts......from a "non-RV'er".....

 

 Mr Hales aircraft is a stunning piece of work, and I can certainly understand his pride in his work. However, there are a couple of things that do bother me about it.

1. In the event of a crash (God forbid), will the news media report it as a "Homebuilt Hales Special" or a "Homebuilt RV-10"?  Would there be any mention of his changes to the design, and decision to increase the Gross weight? You and I both know the answer to those questions. IMO Vans reputation could well be harmed in such a case.

2 In such a scenario, would Mr Hales heirs say  "He did no wrong" and  go after Vans for liability,  leading to a costly and bitter court case that can easily put Vans in bankruptcy even if they win . Once again, not good for Vans

3. While it does look good, and has excellent  workmanship, it goes against the "old" aviation adage "Simplify, and add lightness". IMO it would have been reasonably easy to trim the weight down to where he would still have the same payload without having to increase the gross weight.



#9 Posted: 6/25/2011 08:24:32 Modified: 6/25/2011 08:32:04

it is a GH RV10....it was built by him, not by vans.... where is Van's liability? has anyone ever sued and won against Vans? Not so.... ....

Why is it that no one is considering Greg Hales own expertise?....it looks lie for some Dick V might be Godlike. Greg Hale might not be as famous as Dick V either but he has what it takes to come with all those mods....are you suggesting that he did sell whoever issued the Pink AWC a good story? Not so!

The spirit of EAA and what Experimental is all about is  what it is at stake right here....right or wrong...! 

If  Dick V is suggesting  as a manufacturer of an experimental Kit more control over the builder, he can do so when he sells each kit by an additional ammendment on his selling contract.. Until then, WE in the Experimental world, like the open capabilities allowed by the FAA to explore above and beyond. 

 

 



N202MK Giles 202 S/N 11 Owner
Ron Wanttaja
246
Posts
98
#10 Posted: 6/25/2011 12:20:52
Miroslav Velickovich wrote:

 

it is a GH RV10....it was built by him, not by vans.... where is Van's liability? has anyone ever sued and won against Vans? Not so.... ....

Why is it that no one is considering Greg Hales own expertise?....it looks lie for some Dick V might be Godlike. Greg Hale might not be as famous as Dick V either but he has what it takes to come with all those mods....are you suggesting that he did sell whoever issued the Pink AWC a good story? Not so!

The spirit of EAA and what Experimental is all about is  what it is at stake right here....right or wrong...! 

If  Dick V is suggesting  as a manufacturer of an experimental Kit more control over the builder, he can do so when he sells each kit by an additional ammendment on his selling contract.. Until then, WE in the Experimental world, like the open capabilities allowed by the FAA to explore above and beyond. 

 it is a GH RV10....it was built by him, not by vans.... where is Van's liability? has anyone ever sued and won against Vans? Not so.... ....

 If you think "Never been sued" and "Being sued and won" are the same, then you obviously have never been sued.  There's no court-appointed lawyers in civil court; if you get sued, you get stuck with the legal bill whether you win or lose.  Sure, if you win, you can countersue for your expenses...but you have to show that the original suit was basically ridiculous, and courts are reluctant to rule that way.

As for "Van's Liability," the aircraft is listed as an "RV10" and it was built from parts supplied by Van's.  If you think the supplier of airplane components cannot be sued in an aviation accident, please pass the glad tidings to Teledyne Continental, Lycoming, Bendix, Delco, and a host of aircraft-parts suppliers.  They'll be glad to know that all those lawsuits they'be been hit with didn't really happen.

Vans is the worlds largest producer of kit aircraft, with over 70 employees.  That's a huge "deep pocket" for a plaintiff's lawyer to focus in on.  Remember, attorney fees run $250 or more.  Just two weeks of time costs $20,000. 

I don't know if Vans has ever been sued, but I'm aware of at least two companies driven out of the kit business by lawsuits.  The most famous is Scaled Composites...Burt Rutan got tired of fighting lawsuits (even though he didn't lose any) and took the Long-EZ off the market. 

The second (Quickie, IIRC) went broke fighting a lawsuit...where the builder had modified the aircraft.  He'd drilled a hole in the engine case to install a pressure gauge, and didn't bother to clean out the chips.  The jury found against the kit company.

Why is it that no one is considering Greg Hales own expertise?

How many aircraft has he designed?  Is he a DER?  There's a big difference in being qualified to perform a modification, vs. being qualified to determine the engineering impacts of the mod.   I'm an engineer with one of the world's largest aircraft manufacturers, and that doesn't make me qualified to modify my Fly Baby (not that it's stopped me :-).

 ...are you suggesting that he did sell whoever issued the Pink AWC a good story?

The FAA inspection of an Amateur-Built aircraft is not an engineering inspection.  It's performed by a Designated Airworthiness Representative, not a Designated Engineering Representative.  All the DAR has to do is make sure the paperwork is straight and the aircraft has all the required documentation, placards, and markings.  Most provide a final quality control inspection (making sure nuts are safetied, etc.) but they don't pass judgment on the design itself or the builder's modifications. 

 The spirit of EAA and what Experimental is all about is  what it is at stake right here....right or wrong...!

Poppycock.  Van merely stated his opinion about the aircraft.  He has made no attempt to assert control over it.   The EAA has always supported the free exchange of ideas regarding aircraft construction, but you think the designer of the world's most popular kit aircraft should be silenced.

If  Dick V is suggesting  as a manufacturer of an experimental Kit more control over the builder, he can do so when he sells each kit by an additional ammendment on his selling contract..

Please point out where Dick VanGrunsven claims that he has control what the builder does with his kit.   There have been kit companies in the past that have included "no modification" clauses in their purchase contract, but they're worthless. 

If Vans ever gets sued over one of his aircraft, the first thing the court will ask is whether he attempted to warn the builder of the consequences of his modifications.  Guess what...he's done that.

 



Ron Wanttaja
#11 Posted: 6/27/2011 10:38:06 Modified: 6/27/2011 10:43:31

Ron:  "The Largest Aircraft Aircraft Manufacturer of the World" is been paying my bills for a long time so to answer your question, yes I have being sued personally and being part of law suits as well. I have served as an expert wittness in several cases....

I respectufully disagree with you. You have your opinion and I have mine.

In  regards to Greg Hale qulifications, it might help you to read the entire EAA Magazine airticle...

I am quoting your web FAQ's.

Q301: What is the Experimental category, and what types of aircraft are
       classified/operated in that category?

A:    The Experimental category is essentially an "operating  classification" that has a legal bearing on the operation of the
       aircraft, just like Normal, Utility, or Aerobatic categories have. There are several sub-classifications in the category, such as
       Amateur-built, Racing, Exhibition, Limited, R & D, and others.

       Experimental/amateur-built aircraft are the primary emphasis in this newsgroup. It refers to non-type-certified aircraft that are
       built, maintained, and flown by individuals, thus the term  "homebuilt". Amateur-built aircraft are intended by the FAA to
       serve as educational "vehicles" for their builders and pilots.  (sorry 'bout that pun...)

       The original justification for making the category legal was that it increased the pool of individuals knowledgeable in the area of  aircraft production. Thus the nation had "experts" in aircraft  production to draw upon in times of national emergency. Silly as
       this may sound today, it was taken seriously in the mid '50s when the category addition was being proposed.

       Note that a type-certified airplane may also be re-categorized as  experimental if it's modified in a form such that the FAA will not  approve on a standard 337. This is often the case for prototype/  modified certified aircraft, or for highly specialized
       applications (although these are often categorized as "Restricted"  too)

I know my FAR's and you are SPOT ON.....but If I follow your thinking....maybe we need and experimental sub category for "kit aircraft"    is that a solution?

Your response statement:   "The FAA inspection of an Amateur-Built aircraft is not an engineering inspection.  It's performed by a Designated Airworthiness Representative, not a Designated Engineering Representative.  All the DAR has to do is make sure the paperwork is straight and the aircraft has all the required documentation, placards, and markings.  Most provide a final quality control inspection (making sure nuts are safetied, etc.) but they don't pass judgment on the design itself or the builder's modifications. 

WOW WOW WOW!!!!  Are you suggesting someone did not do his job right and released and unsafe aircraft ?

Read your own FAq's  below..

Q311: How do I license my completed airplane, and what inspections are
       needed?

A:    You *did* document the construction, didn't you?

       Before you are issued an airworthiness certificate, an FAA inspector will require an inspection of the aircraft and all
       documentation of its construction. They used to require a  "pre-cover inspection of the internal structure, but no longer.
       Now they prefer that in-progress inspections are done by an EAA    Technical Counselor, and the inspector will look for his/her   comments in the construction log. When the FAA inspector arrives,   they expect the aircraft to be ready for inspection (all covers   removed), all taxi tests done and logged, and all documentation ready for review.

       When the inspector is satisfied that your airplane is ready for   inflight testing, they will issue a restricted airworthiness
       certificate that describes a test period and testing requirements  (or they may insist on changes or repairs if deficiencies are
       noted). The testing period is usually 40 flying hours (often 25 if   you use a certified engine & prop), and limits you to a fixed
       testing area, normally a 25 mile radius from the home airport and   over unpopulated areas. Passengers are not allowed during the     testing period. While testing, keep a *detailed* log of all   activities, repairs, and changes.

       The inspector will evaluate your testing at the end of the  test period, at which point he or she will issue a permanent
       airworthiness certificate.  At that point, you are free to carry  passengers and fly most anywhere you like.

                 

Last:, I find your statement  humorous....  "I 'm an engineer with............. and that doesn't make me qualified to modify my Fly Baby (not that it's stopped me") 

 So it is Ok for you to modify your experimental as clearly  stated by you,   but not OK for others to do so well within their rights? Please explain....

 

 

 



N202MK Giles 202 S/N 11 Owner
Ron Wanttaja
246
Posts
98
#12 Posted: 6/27/2011 23:29:51

 

OK, let's take it from the top.

 "In  regards to Greg Hale qulifications, it might help you to read the entire EAA Magazine airticle..."

I just did.  Not an engineer ("Batchelor's degree in Aeronautical Technology"), worked in the Beech engineering department almost forty years ago (no job title stated..."responsible for firewall forward" of the T-34C, but with his A&P license, I suspect it means he did the building) then switched to flying professionally.  A&P mechanic, and an active homebuilder with several aircraft to his credit. 

Sounds eminently qualified as a builder, but there's no apparent engineering background.  I'd never heard of an "Aeronautical Technology" degree before.  Looking online, I see one course described as , "Graduates with a Bachelor of Science in Aviation Technology may become professional airline pilots, aircraft maintenance specialists or air traffic controllers."

Dick VanGrunsven, on the other hand, has an engineering degree, has worked professionally as a mechanical engineer, and has designed and flown numerous aircraft of his own design.

I think I tend to count Van's opinion a bit more, especially as the issue concerns one of his own designs.

 "I know my FAR's and you are SPOT ON.....but If I follow your thinking....maybe we need and experimental sub category for "kit aircraft"    is that a solution?"

Actually, there IS a "Kit Built Aircraft" certification.  But it's used to allow builders to construct fully type-certificated aircraft separately from the factory.  Hasn't been used much; Piper did it with the Super Cub in the '80s.

Hale's RV-10 is perfectly suited to the Experimental Amateur-Built category.  Builders are basically allowed to do anything they want.

[My statement:  "The FAA inspection of an Amateur-Built aircraft is not an engineering inspection.  It's performed by a Designated Airworthiness Representative, not a Designated Engineering Representative.  All the DAR has to do is make sure the paperwork is straight and the aircraft has all the required documentation, placards, and markings.  Most provide a final quality control inspection (making sure nuts are safetied, etc.) but they don't pass judgment on the design itself or the builder's modifications. "]

"WOW WOW WOW!!!!  Are you suggesting someone did not do his job right and released and unsafe aircraft ?"

Nope.  The plain fact of the matter is, there is no engineering assessment when licensing an Experimental Amateur-Built aircraft.  If there are obvious workmanship issues, the inspector will refuse to sign it off.  But there's nothing in the rules that requires any sort of assessment as to whether the airplane is sound from an engineering point of view.  That's the joy of Experimental Amateur-Built, it lets people do whatever they want.

"So it is Ok for you to modify your experimental as clearly  stated by you,   but not OK for others to do so well within their rights? Please explain...."

Please re-read what I've posted.  I've never said people SHOULDN'T modify homebuilt aircraft designs.  All I've said that that modifying a homebuilt does not give you a "free ride" from criticism, like your title for this thread implies. 

Just because you CAN stick your tongue in a light socket doesn't mean it's a good idea.   Similarly, there are a bunch of people who have modified homebuilt aircraft with bad results. 

 



Ron Wanttaja
#13 Posted: 6/28/2011 07:17:10

If we go back in history...let's just say Aviation History...How many of the great people we have the honor to follow in this passion of ours   have stuck their tongue in a light socket in pursue of perfection?  Clyde Cessna, Wlater Beech, Burt Rutan to mention just the most known ones....How about Mr. Northtrop and his fling wing........

 How many do you know personally that have stepped outside the box and modified something it was already working as designed? Without any of these people, where do you think, we will be today?  Greg Hele might not be as qualified as Dick V in paper but he might be as great as him......Ever heard in another industry  another genious named Bill Gates...Oh yes...a drop out?

 

As I said before...Dick V might be Godlike to some and I do respect him for who he is, but he is just another human being. Greg Hale in the other hand might be considered by the established world as a noncomformist, an aviation free spirit and even a Maverick for his erratical behavior in modifying Michelangelo's Cistine Chappel, but was he wrong? was he outhside the rules? I dont think so...

 

Dick V. can certify his aircraft if he wants full control of them , until then the regulations allows to explore new designs (right or wrong)

 

Peace!

 

 

 



N202MK Giles 202 S/N 11 Owner
Ron Wanttaja
246
Posts
98
#14 Posted: 6/28/2011 09:36:59 Modified: 6/28/2011 09:56:23

 If we go back in history...let's just say Aviation History...How many of the great people we have the honor to follow in this passion of ours   have stuck their tongue in a light socket in pursue of perfection?  Clyde Cessna, Wlater Beech, Burt Rutan to mention just the most known ones....How about Mr. Northtrop and his fling wing........

I'll see your Cessna, Beech, and Rutan, and raise with the Christmas Bullet , the Smolinski Mizar , and the Bede BD-12.  We honor the successful pioneers, but forget the failures.  But there's something to learn from both.

 Was he [Greg Hale] outhside the rules? I dont think so...

At last we agree on something....
pilot_beer4.gif



 

 

 



 



Ron Wanttaja
#15 Posted: 6/28/2011 16:03:48

Oh my.....oh My....the Christmas Bullet was a little too much!



N202MK Giles 202 S/N 11 Owner
Jim Caron
Young Eagles Pilot or VolunteerAirVenture Volunteer
9
Posts
1
#16 Posted: 7/3/2011 00:31:15

I just read through the article, and don't see a character assassination at all. Just a designer who is concerned about modifications to his plans. Very concerned, to the extent that he is willing to write a warning rant. He's perfectly in his right, and has more to lose in business and reputation than the builder (on this matter, anyway).



Frank Giger
Homebuilder or Craftsman
117
Posts
33
#17 Posted: 7/4/2011 03:46:50

This conversation is really about how far one can go in altering a kit or plan and still refer to it as the original.

I know of a set of builders that modified a set of plans in landing gear, some internal gusset designs, and the tailwheel that were strongly disagreed with by the designer; it's not that they were "wrong," they were just outside of what the guy that researched and did the plans was comfortable with since they were untested.

To this day they state their planes are based on the plans, and make it clear they deviated, which made the designer rest easier - if they didn't work out it wouldn't be his reputation ruined (all the planes are very successful, btw).

The exchanges they had happened at the dawn of the Internet, and was done on the phone, in snail mail, and in person.

This happens quite a bit in the WWI replica world, where folks do all sorts of modifications, from airfoil to engines recommended to instrumentation.  "Based on" has almost become a by-word.

In my case I'll be sticking darned close to the kit plans in my own Nieuport 11, as my engineering knowledge is limited to knowing that Bernoulli sucks up so that Newton can blow down.

The ghosts of Wright, Curtiss, etc. would be the first to jump on the "based on" bandwagon, as that was what they did!  In the case of Curtiss, no two of his planes were the same in construction or design.  Most of the pioneers of flight were quick to point out that they modified their aircraft in some meaningful way - usually to point out their expertise.  Heck, Lindberg pointed out that the Spirit of St. Louis was a one-off modification.  He couldn't credibly state he was flying a Ryan M-2 mail plane when it was completed!