EAAAirVenture OshkoshShopJoin
1  2  Next Page >

Fake WarBirds at Oshkosh!!!

Posted By:
John Hartgerink
Homebuilder or CraftsmanAirVenture Volunteer
22
Posts
2
#1 Posted: 8/13/2010 18:08:28

       Every year for a long time now(over 10 years) EAA and WarBirds has looked the other way and let FAKE WarBirds park in the War Bird Area at Oshkosh. I am talking about the number of Spam cans that are painted to look like a War Bird. example are the push pull 337's that are painted up to look like the O-2's. Also 172's painted to look like T-41!!!But ther are a number of others too!! They should be parked in the Replica Fighter Area as they are not true War Birds!

   They would get the same treatment from RFA as they do WarBirds and would be parked in the right area!!

What is EAA and War bird of America going to do next year so ther are no more FAKE War Birds in the war Bird area???

John Hartgerink
biggrin



Robert Dingley
Homebuilder or Craftsman
161
Posts
38
#2 Posted: 8/14/2010 06:48:54

How do you really tell a 172 from a T41? I guess that you need to look at the data plate.

Bob



John Hartgerink
Homebuilder or CraftsmanAirVenture Volunteer
22
Posts
2
#3 Posted: 8/14/2010 10:03:18

That an a T-41 has a full size tire on the front!
happy

John

Robert Dingley
Homebuilder or Craftsman
161
Posts
38
#4 Posted: 8/14/2010 21:26:14

John, its more complicated. I used to fly T-41Bs as kind of an extra curricula activity. I was assigned other duties. For instance, I used to desert my desk on Mondays and ride with a Reserve Major back to his home in Lubock,TX. He used it over the weekend to get his minimums. He also serviced his Vet supply customers all over N Texas with it. I would then return the bird and US credit card to base. I enjoyed his stories about flying B-36s. We logged him as all Pilot and me all Co pilot so he could knock out his hours faster.

The 4 or 5 varients all shared the same two Type Certificate Data Sheet. (TCDS) They are all described by the FAA as USAF, but USAF procured all FW A/C for the Army since about 1967. TCDS 3A12 covers a string of CE 172 models including the H model which was a T-41A with a Lyc O-320 and fixed prop. These were USAF & used for pilot screening. TCDS 3A17 covers 175s, Cutlass RGs and the T-41B through D as I recall. These had Cont IO-360 engines and McCauly CS prop and were in the Army inventory.. The nose wheels, etc are usually listed as "optional equipment" and you legally can put a 500X5 or 600X6 on the nose.  

A sure way to tell a civilian from a military is look at the panel. If it has 2 amber push to test low fuel lights, its a T41B that started out as military. To be authentic, it needs green canvas upholstery and that ugly sound proofing. The radios need to be scattered all over/under the panel, not in a stack. You need a back pack parachute.

You can swap out parts if they are on the Optional list. Back in the 70s, Cessna sold the 172XP with the little nose wheel and reduced RPM limits for noise abatement, but it is totaly a T-41B. A member of my chapter is refurbing an ex military T-41B.

 It was weird taxiing up to an FBO in a Cessna wearing a parachute and helmet, but it was a military single engine and there are regulations.

Bob

 



John Hartgerink
Homebuilder or CraftsmanAirVenture Volunteer
22
Posts
2
#5 Posted: 8/14/2010 22:45:50

My point is that no one is checking and there are a number of fake War Birds. Yes I know that there are a number of ways to check--but no one does. This problem was told to me by a guy that had flown in and was camping in the war bird camping area as was I. This was 10 years ago when RFA was part of War Birds and I had Vol. for war birds. When I asked him what he flew in(we were walking up to the shower n the morning and he had is flight suit on) he told me-----and it's the only real one--the rest are all fakes--his words not mine. There were 4 fakes and his War Bird. I went over to War Birds and told them of what I had found-nothing was done. A few years ago I went over and was looking at a Fake O-2. It had a full civilan interior and when I talked to the owner--he said War Birds knew and didn't care he wasn't real-they just wanted the numbers so EAA would be happy.

   So what sould be done??

John Hartgerink
biggrin



Robert Dingley
Homebuilder or Craftsman
161
Posts
38
#6 Posted: 8/15/2010 18:53:27

I get your point John. Your only recourse is to OUT the perp. Gather your data from data plates,etc and send it in via letter. For flagrent violators, chip in with others that share your point of view and get a title search.

I swear that I never thought of an off the shelf aircraft as a warbird. A T41 never had hard points or gun sights. It was just for going from point A to point B. If I owned an F-86, I'd put a Bonanza paint job on it. Just me.

Bob



Bill Finney
Warbirds of America MemberYoung Eagles Pilot or VolunteerAirVenture Volunteer
7
Posts
1
#7 Posted: 8/16/2010 20:22:07

I did see a Piper Clipper with a military style paint job get moved out of the L-Bird area to the Replica Fighter area.



Bill Finney
Warbirds of America MemberYoung Eagles Pilot or VolunteerAirVenture Volunteer
7
Posts
1
#8 Posted: 8/16/2010 20:39:31

I flew T-41Bs in the Army.  They had a 210 HP Lycoming instead of the 145HP Continental and a constant speed propeller besides the larger nosewheel.  The cowl was completely open in the front and no spinner or wheel pants.  The Air Force had several versions of T-41s: T-41, T-41A, and T-41D are some that I am aware of.  I am not sure of what differences, if any, they had from a stock 172, but I know that at least some of them looked completely stock.



Bill Finney
Warbirds of America MemberYoung Eagles Pilot or VolunteerAirVenture Volunteer
7
Posts
1
#9 Posted: 8/16/2010 20:41:55

I would say the biggest number of fake Warbirds are in the L-17s.  There are very few that are original L-17s.  Most are just Navions with a paint job.



Robert Dingley
Homebuilder or Craftsman
161
Posts
38
#10 Posted: 8/16/2010 21:46:44

Hi Bill. That must be a typo. I flew the Army T-41B also. I remember that It had a 210 hp IO-360 six cylinder and McCaully Constant speed prop. Lyc also makes a different IO-360 but its a 4 banger like in a Mooney and was not used in these Cessnas. The USAF A model was an off the shelf 67 cessna 172 with 150 hp Lyc. The B's IO 360 was almost the same engine as in the O-2. Resembled the 145 hp O-300 in many respects. Some days, I would fly both the T-41B and a 1970 civilian 172 hours apart. I liked the 172 a little better. Same speed, same load about same R.O.C. The 172 was nicer in the flair due to the lighter weight in the nose.  

Go to the FAA home page and look at the Type Certificate Data Sheets that I quoted previously. The engine/prop data is there. Also, Cessna later sold the B as a 172 Skyhawk XP. You can tell an XP from a 41B by looking at the tach. If its redlined at 2600, its a civilian XP, the 41B was (I recall) 2800 although same engine/prop.

Bob



John Hartgerink
Homebuilder or CraftsmanAirVenture Volunteer
22
Posts
2
#11 Posted: 8/16/2010 23:19:50

It was a L-17 Navion that the guy was telling me was a real one and not a fake. I have found a number of T-41's over the years as well as the fake O-2/337. The Clipper was painted up like the Mustang that the orginal owner Flew and was shot down in --in WW2. Terry White bought it from him and painted it up that way to honor him! It was not judged--eather in War Birds or at Replica Fighter.

    I'd just like to see War Birds and EAA send the Fakes to the North 40 or offer them the option to park with us at replica Fighters.

John

Bill Finney
Warbirds of America MemberYoung Eagles Pilot or VolunteerAirVenture Volunteer
7
Posts
1
#12 Posted: 8/18/2010 14:06:42

Bob:

 

You are correct about it being a Continental and not a Lycoming.  I guess my memory is faulty.  I looked up in a book that I have and even checked my log book.  I don't know where I got the idea that it was a Lycoming.  I used to own a 1969 172 that did have a 150HP (4 cylinder) Lycoming in it.  I think they changed from the Continental in 1968.  Sorry about the confusion.

 

Bill



Robert Dingley
Homebuilder or Craftsman
161
Posts
38
#13 Posted: 8/18/2010 18:03:07

No sweat Bill. They paid me to fly the things, not read the data plates. BTW, I flew them out of Tipton/ Meade,  Wolters/Mineral Wells  had 11 when I got there, down from 17. They had two at Lawson/Benning, spent 9 years there. Where did you fly them?

Every instalation also had a T-42. That is a "warbird" thats ripe for fraud. There is a civilian Beech 55B based in the Mobile area with a perfect military paint job.Could fool anyone.

Bob



Bill Finney
Warbirds of America MemberYoung Eagles Pilot or VolunteerAirVenture Volunteer
7
Posts
1
#14 Posted: 8/18/2010 19:29:28

Bob:

 

I was in class WOFWAC 70-21.  I flew the T-41Bs at Fort Stewart, GA.  I flew the T-42A and O-1 at Fort Rucker, AL.  After graduation, I transitioned into the U-21A.  I flew the RU-21D in Viet Nam from December 1970 to December 1971.

 

Bill



Robert Dingley
Homebuilder or Craftsman
161
Posts
38
#15 Posted: 8/18/2010 19:55:21

A guy that I flew commercial with flew RU-8s and RU-21s in RVN. Calvin George from Louisianna. Its a small community. Mentioned a Mig encounter.

Bob

ORWAC/WORWAC 65-10



Bill Finney
Warbirds of America MemberYoung Eagles Pilot or VolunteerAirVenture Volunteer
7
Posts
1
#16 Posted: 8/19/2010 11:35:40

There was a version of the O-2, I believe it was the 0-2B, that was a pretty much off the shelf 337.  It had a chute for distributing leaflets and speakers for propaganda to try to get the VC to surrender or go over to the other side (chu hoy -sp?).  It was called the bull s*** bomber.  I think most were painted black.  It would be hard to tell one of these from a civilian model.

 

Bill



Vic Frost
Warbirds of America Member
1
Post
0
#17 Posted: 8/19/2010 18:49:17

I am no expert but I believe that some of the T-41's flew with a 230 or 235 Franklin six cylinder de-rated to 210 H.P. with a constant speed prop.

Vic



Dale Matuska
Warbirds of America MemberHomebuilder or Craftsman
1
Post
0
#18 Posted: 8/19/2010 20:03:23

   You forgot all the T-6's, P-51's,B-17s,T-28's,Yaks, Migs,jets,T-34's and a host of other planes that are not "WAR" Birds.

These would be planes that were built up, put together,assembled,never used only for testing, training not during a WAR.

Might find the whole area empty except for a few birds.  Where would you stop.  Do people want to see CERTIFIED War Birds.

Does it only matter to the purest.  Is this a cast the first stone area.  Food for thought.  I don't think you can stop at "spam" cans.

  I personally know of a plane that won awards at Oshkosh in the WARBIRD arena that might have had a few stringers that were

left over from it's past life. Does it count as a WARBIRD?  Drawing lines in the sand might keep a lot of planes away when you

tick off the owners and they leave them home.

 



Jim Goolsby
IAC MemberWarbirds of America MemberHomebuilder or Craftsman
1
Post
0
#19 Posted: 8/19/2010 22:58:30

Perhaps we should look at the individual airplane.  When it comes to "Spam Can" types, if the data plate number match those that were sold the ANY military, just that airplane would qualify for the WB area.  These are aircraft are very rare.  There were even a few Aerocoupes on military inventory.  But that does not mean EVERY Aerocoup should qualify as a WB.

The big iron stuff, well you will not find many with actual combat records.  Many of those airplane did not 'come home' but were salvaged over seas.  Most of the P-51 left now were stateside machines for the ANG.  There is only one B-17 of the 8 flying, that has a real combat record, (the Sally B) and she is based in EU.  The rest were state side ships or non combat planes.

Not all Yaks were ever military.  Yak 18a,-52 yes, but not Yak 52TW or TD (made just for the western market)  The Yak 50 I am not sure but willing to bet not.

True some award winners have just a few stringers along with the data plate that are "original' but that is all the FAA says you need.  During WW2 a lot of bombers received new wing set, tail set, because of battle damage.  Untold engine changes, and such, I wonder how much of an original airplane came home.

The WB area this was pretty messed up and mixed up, thanks to the mud.  I found my CJ-6 parked next to a O-2 and some strange looking yellow motor glider type with USAF markings.  The O2 was a real one, but I not sure of that yellow thing.

 



Raymond Buhr
IAC MemberHomebuilder or Craftsman
19
Posts
6
#20 Posted: 8/20/2010 09:52:32

I don't mean to agitate anyone, but since Oshkosh is for all pilots to enjoy their own and others aviation projects does it really detract from anyones enjoyment, by some "fakes" being mixed in.

 

Honestly, where do you draw the line, are your brake pads original military issue, or is the paint exactly the same color as it came from the factory and what about those spark plugs?

Some planes are so rare that I'd rather see a replica than non at all. Just love all the WWI birds that are cropping up.

 Really the people who can tell the difference should accept a bit of diversity in their midst and those that can't don't really care how authentic it is anyway as they just enjoy the impression of it and their imagination fills in the gaps.

 

I appreciate the pains and cost the "Real" Warbirds owners must endure to keep things OEM but as the saying goes copying something is the sincerest  form of flattery.

 

It comes off  rather snobbish and is not a trait we want to promote at Oshkosh right?....no ofence intended.

 

I also own an authentic vintage aircraft and understand what your saying, but perhaps there should be a Mueseum Quality birds parking section, or some authenticity certification if you are worried about the fakes somehow detracting from your enjoyment or causing confusion amongst the spectators.

 

I think a lot of pilots just like the feeling of being around all the talent and are hoping to sit in on some good stories with the "real" warbirds folks.  I know I like hearing my fellow pilots stories and just love talking to the Geezers who were the "real" pilots of all the "real' warbirds.

If your girl wears Zirconium jewelry and she thinks its diamond and enjoys it as such, then whats the harm in allowing her to enjoy her fantasy?

 

 

I say live and let live and accept some diversity diversity with an open mind.

 

Ray

 

PS: If you are talking about an RV painted with warbird insignia then of course I agree on having them park in their own section as they in no way represent or replicate a legitimate warbird.

 



1  2  Next Page >