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Building A scratch built UL

Posted By:
Norman Langlois
Homebuilder or Craftsman
87
Posts
3
#1 Posted: 10/17/2009 14:54:54 Modified: 8/17/2010 19:15:40

I started my project 5 years ago things have changed  a great deal from that point. One takes a path and can deviate little without incurring great expense. My path has varied , but only at a few points . Reading the articles in the monthly issues , gave a chance to do it better. a few times.

The real problem has been no sounding board . No one to talk to. I have a few people in my circle 2 pilots. they have been most helpful  but they had no interest in UL's . Most are just ignorant of flight and communicating with them gets an oooh or aaaah  that  isn't very helpful. I have had my local Tech counselor look at my project . I have very positive discussion with him.

currently the plane is on track as A 103. the grey area is how do I get there. It seems I have to decertify the plane. if that is so then do I have to register it as an experimental and have it flown by a pilot holding a certificate or can I still yet without training fly it after training of course. and prove its qualification.

A special note this plane is fixed wing pusher with V-tail  in a sea plane configuration  and features wing warping  instead of  aileron

Training for this seems a far reach and may be impossible to find.

the accompanying picture show landing gear they will not be there.
new plane pics 001.jpg

  The plane has evolved into this. The engine is a 440 Kawi swinging a 68  inch IVO  with a 2.8 to 1  Mic
hull modification 010.jpgro V. In the original statement it says wing warping that was removed . The beginning Questions have all been answered as well.

For the record  the complete airframe with all amenities full gauges all the controls and wired,  is tight I  need to find a few more lbs to rid. It weighs in at 298 as you see it .I use the hanging scales you see its the best I have. I suppose if I configure with a soft pack chute I would make my totals after covering as is.

I used edit and put this up front I dont think everyone wants to look 4 pages back for the updates

 

 

 



Jim Heffelfinger
Homebuilder or Craftsman
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#2 Posted: 10/17/2009 23:05:25

The FAA is allowing a total empty weight with floats of 314 pounds for UL..  Based on my uncalibrated eyeball your plane (which by the way is sweet) might just fall outside of that number. 

What are you looking for from the forum? 

Jim

Sacramento



Jim Heffelfinger
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#3 Posted: 10/17/2009 23:20:42

Okay, I am guessing a bit here as some of the info is a bit vague.  If it qualifies as an ultralight then no one needs to be "officially" involved.  The FAA just wants you to not hurt person or property on the ground.  We, I will speak on behalf of others, recommend strongly the need for training in a fixed wing and then a seaplane for water based skills.   Any of the former UL trainers  - pusher high wings - will give similar flights as your plane - enough for training to be transferable.   There are a ton of these flying in 2 seat form and eligible for training flights with a SP instructor.  So, what if not part 103, You register it as a E-AB.   EAA has a kit for this to help you through the process.   You will need to have a SP certificate if the plane falls in the LSA category.  If outside the LSA parameters then you will need a PPL certificate. 

In both cases you will need a seaplane endorsement. 

Jim

 Sacramento

 



Norman Langlois
Homebuilder or Craftsman
87
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3
#4 Posted: 10/18/2009 15:31:25

TY by the way for your reply. As for the first  about the weight. The empty weight as you see it is 233  . removing the gear is 20 the engine is 91 there are 64 lb options. the way I see it im not out of the running yet for a 103. I plan on using the stewart sys.. minimum covering.  I know I will be close but still hope for it to fall in place . Im planning on A 50 lb allowance for a hull with close in sponson

The  wing is 71 lbs as you see it features full cantilever capability with built in engine mnt.[pusher]

the fuselage and impinge weigh 71 lbs as I see it I will put it together one way or another .

the question is still who can fly a 103 option before it is recognized to be so during the test or proving?



Norman Langlois
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3
#5 Posted: 10/18/2009 16:08:56

Re reading your post  I have become confused even more the [seaplane endorsement]

if it applies to certificated aircraft or those to be certifiable

I think this is why I persue 103



Jim Heffelfinger
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#6 Posted: 10/18/2009 17:43:55

RE endorsement.   I was assuming you would not make part 103.  If you do, it is still necessary (not mandatory) to get seaplane training.  The same training as if you were headed for a rating.  In a UL trainer fitted with floats.  The training is for you.  The endorsement is for you if you are a certificated pilot.   In UL category both you and the plane (actually an air vehicle) are totally free to do whatever you want. - Just don't hurt people/property on the ground.  

Do you have a copy of  part 103? 

 



Jim Heffelfinger
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#7 Posted: 10/18/2009 18:04:54

Anyone can fly the plane if it falls into the part 103 category.  You could do your own test flying without any training.  Not recommended to have the builder be the test pilot unless there are many hours in the same type of aircraft - and currency of hours at that.   Follow the Ultralight and Experimental Flight test manual.  http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aircraft/media/ac90-89a.pdf

 

RE Weight; There are many things yet to add weight to that 233.  Based on real world numbers – most UL aircraft with a 90# engine are overweight for the 254 allowable pounds.  As you have a 60# add for the floats you will most likely break even there.  Good luck. Build for UL and document the build for E-AB.  Just in case.  

 



Jim Heffelfinger
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#8 Posted: 10/18/2009 18:12:49

Norm, a few facts for us readers:  Who is the designer, the design name,  what engine,  prop, are you adding a BRS?, what are the designed specs,  Vne, Vs, flaps?, how is the wing warping accomplished?,  how may other planes of this type are flying?, 



Norman Langlois
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#9 Posted: 10/19/2009 16:46:07

Re to the last Q. I am the designer I am less than an amateur I am a beginner with a great deal of special skills in fabrication . I guess that makes me dangerous. and I beginning to feel not welcome with the questions I cant answer

THE EAA does not offer engineering help. All I have is my tech councilor and he see's nothing wrong  on the contrary he has encouraged me to warp the wings.

 

There are no other exact compare with only similarities.

The wing warping is achieved through 2 inch dia. torque tubes running the length of the A frame single spars.

 

The VNE is not calculated it is assumed to be held within the 103  requirements . Sorry my pockets are not deep enough for engineers and test structure or  destruction . as much as I would like it to be so . It is truly experimental.

 

there are no flaps intended unless warping is removed then I will opt. for flaperons.

The design is assimilated from one called the Poorboy the plans of witch I purchased.

 

the paramiters of the poorboy were copied angle of attack  thrust line, wing airfoil, etc the wing is a USA35 modified 5 foot cord at the root 4ft at the tips A symmetrical 26ft span without the addition of tip

 

the structure of the plane is nothing resembling the poorboy it was used to educate



Norman Langlois
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#10 Posted: 10/19/2009 17:54:59

Im not an engineer I have only my skills and a wish to build a better ultralight ! Not any kind of LSA

 I have always looked to the sky and wanted to fly but my pockets arent deep. Looking at ultralights as they are looks to much the risk I wanted better. The structure I have created will far out do tube and sail cloth construction. though it may fall short of carbon fiber it wont shatter either. the triangle is the strongest geometry though less in torque than the tube .Without destroying my plane I cant give you numbers.

The engine is up in the air  subject to be replace I posses a 440 cyuna jalo as seen on  the plane It is heavy with a 5V redrive about 90+ lbs the intent was to use a 3 blade as recommended by manufacturer on 2.3 to1 ratio

I am considering the kawasaki offered by J-Bird with claims of 64 lbs with exhaust carb and redrive at 40HP



Norman Langlois
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#11 Posted: 10/19/2009 18:04:49

One more thing I have read FAR103-7 through no I havent got a copy it is the fact that I have read it that concerned me it seems the bottom line is you are an aircraft till you prove otherwise and are decertified so to speek and subject to fines if found out of specs being treated as an aircraft till otherwise  proven implies a licensed pilot must be doing the flying.



John Eiswirth
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#12 Posted: 10/19/2009 19:24:33

That's a very strong looking structure.  I hope that it works out for you.  I am a wannabe/bottom feeder with my sights on LSA but am considering UL depending on how high the penneys stack up versus penneys required.  I've looked at many designs that have claimed to meet UL requirements and found most to be too heavy/under powered.  There are a few that do, but it's a gamble to build one unless you are sure it fits the UL envelope.  If it doesn't fit UL and isn't certificated as something else, no one can legally fly it.  If it truly is a UL vehicle no certification is needed for the vehicle or the operator, but it can only be flown as specified in Part 103.  You can get a FAR/AIM 2009 at a bookstore for @ $20.  If I go the UL route, I plan on taking lessons to some point past solo and I will seek out locals involved in UL flying before I decide on my project.  Good luck!  I admire your project am interested in how it turns out.  Be Safe!



Jim Heffelfinger
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#13 Posted: 10/20/2009 12:17:22

Here is a copy of part o103 directly from the fed - electronic doc service.

The first parts indicate that there is no requirement for you the builder or operator to do anything unless asked by proper authority to provide proof of compliance – an inspection at that time of asking or on a decided date.

So as stated before.  Build for part 103, document as an E-AB. And hope for the best. 

 



Files Attachment(s):
Part 103.pdf (144537 bytes)
Jim Heffelfinger
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#14 Posted: 10/20/2009 12:36:33

 

Signs that you may not be looking at legal  Ultralight…..

You note a second row of seats

There are a pair of surplus drop tanks mounted on the wings

The ASI is graduated in Mach numbers

The engine is listed as a R-1340

A placard states maximum of 10 G during maneuvers

You note a  yellow and black handle marked Ejection – Pull

A 10’ long tow bar and ladder comes with it.

The owner is wearing a G-suit for the demo flight

The FAA is parked outside the hanger door. 

A collection of airplane services trucks are under and around the plane

 



Norman Langlois
Homebuilder or Craftsman
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#15 Posted: 10/20/2009 19:54:23

When I finish expect I will be tapped on the shoulder to supply proof where ever its flown.

I have vision it will resemble the ICON A5 in ultralight mode  not exact but similar.
 
So there will be no cheating .
 
Jim being new I am not sure how many pic's or how much to show the readers

This is very much experimental and very much a work in progress the cockpit is nearly finished in the raw  applying peddals this week every thing is invented as application requires . is this a place to blog a project ?

Or shall I end this thread as my question has been answered>



Reggie Smalls
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#16 Posted: 10/20/2009 22:00:43

Norman, don't end the thread! I would love to learn more about your project, particularly to see more pctures  It is rare to see an entirely new design being  built from scratch.  I admire what you are doing.



Jerry Rosie
Young Eagles Pilot or Volunteer
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#17 Posted: 10/21/2009 10:23:45

I second Reggie's motion - please do not end the thread.  Please keep us advised as you progress through this project - it looks awesome and i hope you can bring it in within the part 103 sepcifications.  Thanks for sharing.

 



Cheers, Jerry NC22375 out of 07N
Norman Langlois
Homebuilder or Craftsman
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#18 Posted: 10/21/2009 18:52:38

OK then, as long as there is interest I will share  I will answer what I can as long as you understand I'm not an engineer.What I create is experimental. The pictures are to show some questions already asked . there will be another next week when I install the rudder pedals.

The wing warping is achieved through he torque tube  the inboard third of the wing has a bottom diaphram.this enhances the load bearing and limits the twist to the outer portion.

I have been assured it will take very little to achieve roll.



Files Attachment(s):
new plane pics 005.jpg (994072 bytes)
new plane pics 006.jpg (1019360 bytes)
new plane pics 007.jpg (1140219 bytes)
Norman Langlois
Homebuilder or Craftsman
87
Posts
3
#19 Posted: 10/21/2009 19:06:00

I can post a picture or answer a question my pics are in High def. I could use another setting if I'm using to much space.What looks manufactured is made by my hands at my place of employment .My boss likes me.LOL

The entire aircraft one piece at a time including a complete roll forming machine that turns out hundreds of feet of .035 channel  as I wish. the ribs are made from this.

The flaring is deeply coined by hydraulic press with a special variable size die .

 

My attitude is If I cant buy it I will make it myself.



Ried Jacobsen
194
Posts
26
#20 Posted: 10/23/2009 13:09:54

Since I may end up doing something sslightly similar, I am enjoying this thread so far.  Don't go away, PLEASE!

If your question(s) on this thread are answered, you can let this thread die.  If you get new questions, start new threads.  If some one thinks you are asking too many questions, they might tell you, but keep asking questions.

Last I recall, the E in EAA is Experimental.  Keep asking questions, be very careful, stay on the right side of the regulations, and if you stay on this forum, others can learn as you go!

Let us know if you do choose to blog someplace, some of us will want to follow occasionally!



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