?'s from the new guy

I am leaning more to listening to friend 2 at this point, and see where it goes, if I want to get a legal ultralight, or go bigger and get the LS lic.

Dave

Hi, Dave.

   You asked for good info. Here's my 2 cents... you can judge. First, a few questions. What is your flying experience/training? If it's only "rode many hours with both", do you really know all the qualities that make a "better pilot"? My definition includes doing "everything by the book". If you are legal- a lot less worries and becoming legal causes you to learn stuff you need to know to keep alive. You say you'll only fly from home and land at home--- gets boring after a few hours-- but you won't go to that fly-in with your friends, or even over to their strip? What happens when- yes when- you have to make an off-field landing and every cell phone camera in the area documents it? You are buying a 2 seater- so with little or no training in an illegal aircraft- will you be giving rides? You didn't define " a smoking deal"---you usually get what you pay for. No N number could end up being very expensive. It's your life- what kind of pilot do you really want to be?

Dick, thanks for the response.

I live in Mi, so winter is here. flight training starts in the spring, and planning on taking a ground course this winter. I do not have a death wish, and my wife insists. there is an instructor for light sport, with the same aircraft, just a few miles away.

As far as the deal goes, I got  them both for less than $4500, from what my research has told me, I could part them out and double my money.

It seems there are two stories to the fat Ultralights.

The one friend removed one seat, and still goes everywhere he did before the rule change, and I have read online, that if it looks like an ultralight, mainly only one seat, there is really no worries.

The other camp says anything from a small fine, to losing your house.

I know myself well enough to know, that if I enjoy this as much as I think I will. I will not want to stay with this level of airplane, and will have to move up, both in planes and training.

Being winter, I do have a few month to figure out how to move forward. Mainly start with one of the planes I have, or sell and buy something different..

Any further info would be appreciated.

Dave

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You're not gonna like to hear this, but, if you can make money by parting out your aircraft, that is probably the best way to go, since an unregistered "fat ultralight' is worthless to anyone except the uninformed.  It is an illegal aircraft and flying it could get you in big, and expensive, trouble.  You might get away with flying an illegal aircraft out of your back yard for years, but you have  already indicated the probable desire to 'move up', which would indicate to me that you will soon tire of taking off, flying in a circle, and landing in your own back yard.  As soon as you leave that environment, you are opening yourself up to being 'discovered' in an illegal activity.  Remember, one need not be an employee of the FAA to 'turn you in'.  It happened to an acquaintance of mine who was ratted out by a jealous hangar mate.  The FAA descended with tape measure, scales and tons of paper and made totally sure that his ultralight was 103 compliant.  (Removing one seat from a fat ultralight does NOT make it legal.)  Unless you are totally comfortable with jeopardizing your ability to fly in the future, I suggest you not take the chance of flying an illegal aircraft.  (A disgruntled neighbor can easily make a call to the local FSDO)   Your choice.

Hi Dave,

I am nearly finished with an X-Plane simulator model of Quicksilver MX II.  You can get the sim at x-plane.com for $29 and I'll send you a free copy of the model if you want one. Please respond to me at chuckbodeen@earthlink.net.

chuck

Hi Dave,

What if you parted out both of your aircraft and doubled your money like you said? So now you should have around 15 to 16K cash in hand (the 8K + the doubled amount from parts sale). Now you could take some of that money and pay for flight training with your LSA instructor down the road or even get your private pilots license. Then you would have a ton more experience and be able to make a better decision on what you really want not to mention you would be a much better pilot and not put yourself or others at risk trying to teach yourself how to fly. You will have some money left over to purchase an aircraft and be legal and smart enough to fly it safely. Then you could safely give others a ride and be a good influence to others thinking about learning to fly.

Here are a few absolutes and forces that affect all or us:

1. everyone has to pay for experience either with money, time, or mistakes sometimes with all three.
2. no one is born with the ability to fly (called "the right stuff"), you have to have experience (see item #1)
3. it is best to learn from a qualified and certified instructor. uncertified instructors (aka: flying buddy) are too lazy or can not pass a CFI checkride and will have improper training technics & bad habits, this = future accident. Proper flight training will give you correct skillset and learned response to handle the unplanned situations that WILL  happen in the cockpit.
4. There is much more to flying than making the correct flight control input. The Barefoot Bandit thought he was a good "pilot". Guess what?, he is an idiot. (video games are not substitute for item #1)
5. What you do will and does affect other people. Lets please break the chain of illegal Ultralights and self taught flying skills. It is not in the best interest of anyone and gives Ultralights and EAA a black eye and bad name. Also can convince someone else to do the same.
6. What you print on the internet stays there forever and you can not remove it. And yes FAA employees are also EAA members, and no I'm not a FAA employee OR a certified flight instructor.
7. Equipment not maintained properly always breakdown during operational use when you most need it to be working properly. Aircraft with deferred maintenance are absolutely less safe than squawk free aircraft.

I have personally seen 3 fat ultralight crashes in our EAA chapter. 2 were fatalities and one near death. All three "pilots" refused to get proper flight training. And everyone in our EAA chapter still to this day think these "pilots" were/are stupid idiots, I also agree. I still talk to non flying people in our area (10+ years later) how they think those experimental aircraft up there at that grass strip ( the fat Ultralights which tech. are not experimental aircraft by definition which does not matter to these people) are unsafe and should not be allowed to fly over our area and think the government should do something about it!

Dave, don't be cheap and think you can save money on flight training, it's not optional, you are worth every penny you spend. When you are in the cockpit you should be in control and fly the aircraft not the aircraft flying you.

Sincerely and Happy Landings,

Swaid Rahn

P.S. The money one saves on flight training can be used for a casket upgrade at one's funeral.

Hey Dave, Man you ask the tough ones. What you've got there is two very interchangeable aircraft. Between the two you ought to be able to build yourself a legal ultralight with exellent performance. I wish I were in your shoes. Before I took the other seat out of either of those I would use one of them to get some training. There's got to be a CFI out there somewhere that's not such a GA snob that he wouldn't give you some instruction. Even if you part them out I don't think your going to pull enough to buy yourself an LS. I say play the hand that you've been dealt and get your butt in the air. I'd be looking for an instructor right now. 

My stinky opinion,             J.

Thanks for the replies.

Some of you have  misread my intentions, I stated that I start training in the spring, by an authorized instructor.

And nothing was ever said about , these being flown in poor condition, or not being maintained properly.

The only question was flying one of these fat ultralights from home. Not proper training.

And while I value everyone's  thoughts on this issue, I see a huge difference, for regular pilots, and ultralight guys.

From what I have gathered, it is like Harley riders, verses all other brands., While I enjoy the ride on my honda, my harley buddies like the idea they own a harley, but don't really like to ride.

I posted this question on a couple different boards, we see the responses I received here, as on the other forum, they all echoed Jay's reply.

I hope this sport, is not as cliquish , as it appears so far, if so, maybe it is not something I want to be a part of. I had planned on using the ultralight as a stepping stone, but I now see why several of the ones I have talked to have flown ultralights for years, and never moved up, or why I have talked to a few pilots, who have moved back to ultralights.

I was lucky enough to spend about three hours last night talking with an FAA inspector at a party, a really good friend of my brothers.

His answer was, take the lessons, remove a seat, and fly the **** out of it. He said no guaranties, but said most inspectors have a lot bigger worries, than a fat ultralight.

Thanks

Dave

Dave,

I have to agree with Jerry. I have a friend that was flying a T-Bird II. The plane had an N number but he had not yet been certificated. He had an engine out and his wife was injured. The FAA went after him BIG TIME civilly a couple of times (read that BIG fines). If you have a certificate that is usually what is in jepordy. If you are not certificated then they fine you. They're not happy 'till you're not happy.

Dave

Dave,

Firstly I know absolutely nothing about ultralights or the rules pertaining to them  I've been up in an ultralight twice, once in Scotland, where they are referred to as microlights, and once here - thoroughly enjoyed both experiences.  I've found your post and this thread interesting to read tho'.  

One thought that has been recurring while I read through this - insurance.  It seems that everything in the US (and probably elsewhere too) is controlled by insurance.  If you go with the option where the aircraft seems not to be totally within the rules, will it, and you, both still be insurable?  Not only in the event of the aircraft or you getting dinged, but if, heaven forbit, someone else gets hurt too?  If the worst happens (yes, I'm a natual born pessimist ) and you and a stranger are badly hurt or killed, what is your wife left  to deal with in the way of legal messes.  Just a thought.  And like I say at the outset, I have zero knowledge of the ultralight rules & regs, so may have completely misunderstood what was being referred to in the two options. 

Hope you enjoy your training, and the subsequent flying, whatever you decide to do.  It is one of the best ways to fritter away your hard earned savings ... 
 

Hey Dave, I AM a harley rider(actually homebuilt custom chopper). I've been doing it so long now that I've lost that snobish if it aint a harley it aint **** attitude. I figure if you ride, your a biker. I have got the same philosophy towards aircraft. I just wish the GA snobs would drop their BS and help get aviation going again. Not everyone can afford even a $15'000 airplane just to get off the ground. Ultralights are THE entry level aircraft. I've wanted to fly since I was a little kid,but unfortanatley wasn't born with the silver spoon up my ***. 'Bout a year ago an old freind of mine passed on and left me his MX. It needed a little sprucing up and now it's ready to fly. I tried to self teach myself and wound up with my right arm laid open, a knot on my head and scarring the holy p*** out of myself. And do you think I could find anyone to instruct me.NO! Now Dave you've got a better chance in the fact that your UL has two seats. Now if we can reprogram the instructors attitudes towards UL's we'd have it made. Wish you the best,   J.

I was lucky enough to spend about three hours last night talking with an FAA inspector at a party, a really good friend of my brothers.

His answer was, take the lessons, remove a seat, and fly the **** out of it. He said no guaranties, but said most inspectors have a lot bigger worries, than a fat ultralight.
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Dave, you asked for, and received opinions regarding your plans.  It is up to you whose opinion you decide to follow, as it is you who must accept the consequences of your decision.  But, your decisions may have an impact on other ultrailght flyers so consider carefully.  One of the major causes of aircraft accidents has been proven to be what is known as " an anti-authority attitude"

.

Hi, Dave.

     Janet brings up a good point. I was able to purchase a rider on my life insurance so that if the worst happens, my family will be taken care of financially. I have 14 friends who died in flying accidents over the years- flying all types of aircraft- ultralights, gyros, antiques, homebuilts, GA. Their piloting skills ran the gamut from beginner to very experienced-  ultralight pilot, private pilot, CFI to airline captain. Those that did it "by the book" left their families with a lot fewer problems to deal with than those who didn't. Not trying to discourage you from flying- I started because, after spending a month on my back recovering from a motorcycle/car collision- decided flying was safer. Yes, there are GA snobs- most of them have never flown anything else. That's fine- they don't know what they are missing. I got my private pilot license in 1976, rented a C-150 and flew to Oshkosh. Have missed 4 since. Made hundreds of friends as a result. For me, part of the challenge of UL flight is actually building and flying an "air vehicle" (FAA term for a legal ultralight). My Mitchell Wing B-10 met all of the criteria. The biggest problem was- no 2-seater training in type. After selling it to " move over' to an N-3 Pup, Luscombe, T-Bird, Weedhopper, MiniMax, and now Challenger ll, I still consider it the best time I've had flying. In fact, it was eventually purchased by a retired FAA inspector. I think, if you reread the responses to your original post, you will see that there is not snobbishness, rather a real concern for you and your welfare based on the past experiences of the members here. That is what EAA is all about.

Dave,

  Your primary responsibility is to keep yourself safe while having the fun of flying. Keep reading and exploring and talking to people and you will find your way. You are the one who will make each decision along the way. Carefully pick your way through helpful and ridiculous regulations, inept and valuable instructors and good and bad advice. The most important choice is in your instructor. He or she will guide you.

I used to fly a fat UL and then took the Sport Pilot plunge. My instructor is a DPE-- designated pilot examiner -- these guys are more on the inside of things than CFI-BFI.  He told me that SINGLE SEAT fat UL's will not get the FAA's attention on their own. The other posts here are also correct-- a second seat, a cranky neighbor, a screw-up by you or the airplane will bring the pain. But if something like that happens and you only have 1 seat, the fan will probably be on low speed when the dirt hits it.  Flying off turf in an open UL is a great way to begin flying.  Go for it and be careful.....     

Do it the right way.  You say you have a wife, dont know if you have kids.

You have life insurance?  If, god forbid, you die in this fat-lite, your insurance most likely will not pay.  All they have to say is your flying with no license in an unregistered AIRPLANE.

Is that worth a few bucks it will cost you to get legal?

Now 4500 for a couple of Quicksilvers seems too good to be true. (warning sign?)

Get them looked at by qualified persons, not your flying buddies. If they are good, buy them. Part them out, get LS qualified.

You ask the hard question but appear to have the answer already. You have an instructor and an N numbered two-seater. Put the two togeather and get comfortable in the air. Use the non N numbered for crow hops and cross wind take off and landing and parts. You do not need two of the same aircraft.

Or -  Am I missing the point that you are deciding which one to purchase. If so, the N number triples the price of the equipment and the maintenance. You will likely end up illegal for some reason in the end regardless.  Too many regulations to catch them all. You can comply with sum of them all of the time or all of them sum of the time.

Stand by the side of the road and see how many drivers comply with the speed limit. I am sorry to say that is the trend today. In either case do not short the good judgement and training. Note: You can and should teach yourself to fly. A good instructor will help. Teaching yourself to fly involves getting all the assistance possible from others.

Dave, I flew as an ultralight pilot for 19 years when the rules changed. I had to make a decision because the ultralight I flew was close enough to fly as an ultralight. After giving it lots of thought, I decided to spend the money and get licensed. I can say it was worth the effort because I have since bought a larger LSA and now my wife flies with me. I learned more about airports and can now take x-country trips. The illegal guys may get away with flying for awhile, but it's like driving without a license and/or without current tabs on your car. Eventually, you may get noticed and not in a good way.

Ralph